Information isn't Transformation

Every Womyn and Her Dog – Episode 7

Information Isn't Transformation

You know the pattern.

You've read the books.
Listened to the podcasts.
Attended the workshops.

You understand what needs to change.

So why does life still look the same?

In this episode of Every Womyn & Her Dog, we unpack one of the biggest misconceptions in personal growth: the belief that more information creates transformation.

Because awareness is powerful.

But awareness alone isn't enough.

In This Episode, We Explore:

Why information alone doesn't create lasting change

•  The difference between understanding, knowing, and embodiment
• Why so many women know exactly what they need to do—but still don't do it
• The hidden gap between awareness and transformation
• Why personal growth can become another form of consumption
• How to recognise when you're learning versus simply collecting information
• The three levels of learning and why most people get stuck in the middle
• The role of repetition, integration, and practice in creating chang
•  The four stages of The Rose Way and how they support transformation
• How to recognise when deeper shifts are occurring, even when progress feels slow
• Why spaces like And She Rose focus on embodiment rather than information alone

Key Takeaways

• Awareness is the beginning of change, not the completion of it
• Information becomes transformation through integration and embodied action
• Personal growth isn't about collecting more knowledge—it's about applying what you already know
• Lasting change happens through repetition, practice, and lived experience
• The goal isn't to know more. The goal is to become more.

Featured Guests

Joanne Lea — Coach, Therapist & Change Maker

Katelyn Dwyer-Taylor — Taylor Made Digital Support

Explore More

If this episode resonated with you and you’re feeling called toward “something more,” you can explore Joanne’s offerings below:

And She Rose — Joanne’s 2-day immersive women’s experience currently touring across Australia

Embodied Womyn 1:1 — personalised coaching and therapeutic support for women seeking deeper transformation

Her Circle - a week long intensive immersion program that honours and seamlessly blends the ancient craft of basket weaving with profound exploration into women’s development, rites of passage, and connection with the Divine Feminine.

And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps more women find these conversations.

Original Soundtrack composed and produced by Flava Productions.

Follow here: https://www.instagram.com/flavaproductions/

Follow Katelyn – Taylor Made Digital Support
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/taylormadedigitalsupport

Follow Joanne Lea
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joanneleacoach

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joanneleacoach/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@joanneleacoach

Substack: https://joanneleacoach.substack.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hello everyone and welcome to Every Woman and Her Dog, a podcast where we talk about the things women whisper about in kitchens, voice note to their friends, and think about at 2am. I'm your host, Joanne Lee, coach, therapist, and change maker. Each episode we explore the realities of womanhood and cover topics ranging from identity shifts, feminine cycles, to self-leadership, relationships, burnout, and ambition. Bringing to the surface the quiet reinventions happening behind closed doors for women. This is the being and becoming of personal agency. Let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. Today's conversation might ruffle a few feathers. We're talking about something many of us have been sold, especially in the personal development world. The idea that if we just learn enough, read enough books, listen to enough podcasts, and attend enough workshops, eventually everything will change. It'll all just drop in. And yet for many women it doesn't. They know exactly what they should do, they can see their patterns and explain their wounds, and they've consumed years of information, but their life still looks remarkably similar. The same relationship dynamics, fears, limitations, and stories. The reason information isn't transformation, and that is the topic of our discussion today. Knowing something and embodying something are two very different things. So today we're unpacking why awareness alone isn't enough, what actually creates lasting change, and why transformation requires more than simply gathering knowledge. In our conversation today, I'm joined by Caitlin Dwyer Taylor from Taylor Made Digital Support, mum of two girls and the woman behind the scenes helping bring so much of my work to life. Welcome Caitlin. Hello. I'm really excited to open this conversation up today. This is such an important topic. So without further ado, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

This conversation is really important, I think, because most of us have had the experience of learning something valuable and then doing absolutely nothing with it. Or maybe we do something with it for a week, a month, a year, and then somehow end up back where we started. Let's unpack why this happens. If information alone created transformation, most of us would have changed years ago, right? Yes. So let's start with this big one. Why isn't information enough? I would say most women listening probably know things they aren't living. I know I do. Maybe they know they should set boundaries, set bigger boundaries, back themselves better, that they deserve more or are destined for a next level. So here's our first questions. What's the difference between knowing something intellectually and actually embodying it? And why do those two things often seem so far apart?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Okay, so your first question: what's the difference between knowing something intellectually and actually embodying it? Well, I would say what's showing up in your world, right? Whatever's showing up in your physical world indicates exactly where you're at. So if you've learned something, but then you haven't implemented it, it won't be showing up. Yeah, that's a really good signpost to go, okay, it's not working. And what um most don't have an awareness of is the three levels of learning. I've mentioned this before, I think, um, just off the cuff in one of our other episodes. So I think, well, I know that that answers the difference between like intellectually and actually embodying something, because when you move through those three phases, the the inevitable is that you're going to embody it, but we don't have a lot of understanding about that, and then why do those things often seem so far apart? Again, it's because we don't have an understanding of that. So, Joe, what what are those three levels of learning? Okay, so the three levels of learning and the way that I see them, uh understanding, which is your intellect awareness, and how you digest a concept. Then the second level is knowing. So when something arises, I can use this here, or you know, this goes with that at Suzanne's, right? So it's like, oh, this thing's happening, oh, this is where I would apply this tool. It's quite a conscious experience, but it's not automated, yeah. And uh it's a bit like um for most people, they actually sit in that space for a very long time, they hover for long periods of time. Um, so flexing your muscles in this area are really important to move to the next stage. And I would say the knowing stage is the longest stage, yeah. And then we move to the third stage, which is embodiment, that's the learning or the integration of the tool into automation, so it's used automatically, it's known, and then moved to a space where it's actioned uh and it has become habitual, so it's unconscious and qualified. Um, this is where the threshold between information and transformation exists, is that last and third stage. And just as a base note, the second stage, just to bring some awareness to people, it takes 651 reps for a new belief to be formed. Okay, so and when we talk about beliefs, beliefs are agreements, something that you've agreed and made a contractual agree and said, yes, I this thing is true to me, so that's a belief. So beliefs are the basis of action, they motivate our actions. So, as you can imagine, integrating in that second stage is really important because if you don't keep getting touch point after touch point after touch point of what you're wanting to turn to embodiment and therefore transformation, it's gonna fall short. And the answer to your second question, the breakdown, well, we just went through that, it's not moving through the stages to full integration, yeah? So it's being stuck or caught. You know yourself and you've met other people where they can tell you a lot about things, but it it's just knowledge, like it's not even it's just information, they're not actually applying what they've learned, so you can tell where you're at in those stages yourself, and you can tell with other people where they're at. And I mean, we go when you learn, you would know this, um Caitlin, as you know, doing your teacher training and other bits and pieces, consciously unconscious, consciously conscious, when we talk about habits and learning styles and formats, there's different phases that you move through, but no one actually explains them in like real time. Like what does that actually mean to me? Well, it means you know, stage one, you are acquiring concepts, stage two, you're learning how to integrate that and practicing them, and stage three, you're doing it, yeah. So that that if you're not if that's not happening, that's the gap.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yeah. One thing I see a lot in women and personally constantly searching for the next answer, the next book, the next course, podcast, piece of wisdom. Almost like transformation is hiding in one more piece of information just around the corner. Why do we do that? How do we know when we're genuinely learning versus just consuming that information?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

It's a really good question because we can get caught up in that. It's a bit like you know, when we say I'm busy, and you're like, Are you busy doing things? Or are you busy being busy? Yeah, yeah, like what are you actually doing? It's a very similar concept. So by nature, uh we are and we'll always be looking for the next step of the spiral transformation as women. That's that's how we're set up. Like, as a mother, you're always looking for how can I best mother my child? What skills do I need to acquire better to make this better for me and my child, right? We're looking for that. We're looking for that as young maidens, we're looking for that in our marker science, we're looking for that all the time. That is part of our natural nature as women is to seek, to seek what the next part of the spiral is, because life is not linear, it's a spiral transformation. So the problem exists when we keep staying at the understanding level and never moving through to the other levels. So um, continuing to expand yourself is wonderful, but what are you doing with it? Like, what's the purpose, right? So even if it's one small thing that you're taking to the integration level, it's worth investing in if it's going to value add to you. So here's where you come up with that question like consuming information versus you know, generally learning. We in intentional living asks us to consider what's the purpose of what you're investing in and why. And as a woman, we haven't a lot of us haven't been taught about intentional living, but that that applies to us as women so much. It could apply to men as well, but I'm just going to speak to women. For us, intentional living is part of how we create and craft our lives. So when you you know ask what's the purpose of what you're investing in and why, that will determine the answer to consuming versus learning. How does that align with what your greater intentions are, etc. etc. etc., and where you're at? Yeah. What's your thoughts on the difference between consuming versus that rather than learning?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

I just think straight away, like putting it into practice. And I keep thinking about when I did my training and assessment course, kind of on the same path. It's kind of like they didn't pass you as competent in a like a assessment until you had demonstrated it three times. So you had to do that skill three times in order to to say you could do it. Which I can, you know, I can re here we go, here's a great example. Okay. Here we go. I'm not very good at cooking. Oh, okay. It's it's stressful. Um so I could read a recipe and be like, I can do that, but unless I've actually physically done it, I can't say that I can cook that meal. That doesn't qualify for you. So unless you cook it, you go, I haven't done it. Yeah, because I can read it and go, oh yeah, I understand this. Doesn't mean I can actually cook it.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

And you have the knowledge or the know-how to apply what you're reading, right? So your understanding and the knowledge is there, like, oh yeah, I know how to get a quarter of a cup of butter. Yeah so that this, oh, this is where I would implement this, and this is where I would implement that. But the embodiment stage is the stage when you actually flex every single muscle in the knowledge stage, right? So I see what, yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

I'd probably be, I can cook. I just don't like doing. Well, that's a different statement, isn't it? And I think I I say I'm not a very good cook because I base it off one experience.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

I think you're saying you're not a very good cook, so you can avoid cooking. Yeah, exactly. So but if you were being if you were being really transparent about that, you'd say I don't actually enjoy cooking. I don't enjoy cooking. And that's okay for you to say that, Caitlin, because that's you, right? Takes me too long. It do you think that you undermine yourself when you say I'm not good at cooking?

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah. I think um I I don't give myself the opportunity to to succeed in cooking. Okay. Um, I think because yeah, because I don't enjoy it, and I just go, no, I'm not gonna do this. And Connor enjoys cooking, so let him do it.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

For sure. Yeah, like if he likes it, there's no problem with it. I just wonder, and look, this is a great learning experience for our women out there. By saying you you're not good at things, it's actually not claiming what you want. It's not saying I don't enjoy it, it's not something that I jam with.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

So, but you're actually undermining yourself there, like putting pressure on yourself and saying I'm not good at it. Is that actually the truth? That's not the deeper truth. The deeper truth is I don't enjoy it, so therefore I don't apply myself in that space because it doesn't tick my boxes or light me up, yeah, and sometimes we have to do those things, like cook dinner when Connor's not there, you know. And that's when we cheat. Well, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Cook my eggs in the micro, it comes out fine.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Okay, so but yeah, just like I would say we're talking about integration, yeah. We when we use that statement there, it's like what are you integrating when you say, I'm not good at this? Is that the deepest truth you need to be telling yourself? Yeah, because that changes things, right? Because then you're like, it's okay to be you, but why would you purposely say something negative about yourself when it doesn't align with you? There we go. Noodle baking time.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Don't let Connor hear this because then it's okay. Oh dear. So if awareness is only the beginning from your experience, what are the oh here we go? What are the ingredients that help someone move from understanding their patterns to actually changing them?

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Okay, so it's this exact question, right, uh, that I kept asking myself for a very long time. Sitting in the place that I sit as a coach and a therapist, I was like, I wanted to answer that question, and the answer to that question is the reason why I created what I call the Rose Way. So the Rose Way is a feminine-centric transformation process, it's a feminine pathway, it's the spiral of remembering, reclaiming, and rising to embodied self-leadership. This pathway like it took me quite a while to develop it. I I did it and I revised it and I did it and I revised it and I did it because I wanted to to be really I wanted it to be something that women could really grasp onto once they're finished working with me. How could they get that and rinse and repeat that? Because there's going to be times where they need to do that themselves, and that's part of embodiment as well, like it getting to a space where they've embodied the skill or the pathway as well as doing their own journey, right? So the pathway supports women to move through the four stages of change required for transformation. So we talked about that, the three stages of learning, it embraces that philosophy as well as looking at how we move as women, and um, then I sort of fused that stuff together so that it honors um that women are cyclical by nature, that we move, process, and integrate life very differently. So it makes sense that our approach to healing, growth, and change needs to be reflected from the women's centric perspective, and that's how I that's that's how it answered that question, and it's also why I created that system or that pathway.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

So could you tell us more about the four stages, each stage? Um the first one, awakening.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

So the first stage is awakening, which is awareness and exposure. So in this stage, a woman learns about the patterns that she's been living inside herself, the roles she's been performing that may not be applicable for her, and also the conditioning that she's been operating from. And the first stage is a little bit brutal because it's this radical responsibility stage. It's actually learning what has been yours, what you need to take ownership for, and how you might not be so happy with some of the things you've been doing, but it's really supported and it's also for your highest purpose. So when women step into this spiral transformation, they get into a place where they're like, Alright, I'm sucking it all up. Yeah. I'm like, I'm gonna accept it, I'm not gonna judge myself for it, and that's part of that stage is teaching them how to not judge themselves with that, becoming the curious observer in their own lives and just being curious about what they've been doing and almost humorous at some points, rather than beating themselves down about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Then the second stage is reclamation. So this is when women learn all of these ownership tools. So they take ownership for their choices and their patterns and their responses, which they started to do in the awakening because they're becoming aware of it. Then they step outside blame and survival and autopilot where they're doing that in their lives, and you'd be quite surprised where you didn't realise you were doing that, but it's happening. Like a perfect example is a little autopilot that we just picked up on you by saying, Yeah, you know, that you're not good at something, but that's actually not necessarily the truth, right? And then we learn she begins using tools that place her back into the designer's seat of her life. So she starts to move out of the passenger seat or the back seat and into the driver's seat of her life and learns a whole range of tools and strategies to help her move through those spaces and places where those old patterns, responses, and choices were showing up. Then we move to the third stage, which is the remembrance stage, and this is where the feminine knowledge and reintroduction of their feminine knowledge gets um uh taught. Yeah, so this is where they learn about their feminine wisdoms and ways of being, the cyclical living versus linear, and then also how to be aware of emotional, somatic, and intuitive intelligence. So this is all very innate with being a woman. It is knowledge that has existed many, many, many eons ago, was passed down from woman to woman, and um it's one of my favorite areas to work in because I love the reclamation of our ancient knowledge. And this this once we're in remembrance stage, this is a game changer because all of a sudden there's new ways of integrating things, right? New ways that feel so resonant, but like you've never used them before, even though you know when you meet someone and you're like, I swear we could have known each other, yeah. It just feels like so like the ease between the two of you feels really easy, even though you might have known them for two days, you feel like you've known them for 10 years. Yeah, that's what that remembrance stage is like for women because it's in our DNA, it's in our bodies, we just haven't awoken it. So that's a really that's when I feel like women like come alive in that stage because there's like this real reclamation of I I don't have to live a way that doesn't suit me. This actually does suit me, and this makes so much internal sense to. Me that I cannot believe I have not had it before.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Yeah. And then we move to the final stage, which is the embodiment stage. And that's all about personal agency and integration. And in once we get to this stage, a woman has been practicing all the stuff that they've learned through the awakening, the reclamation, and the remembrance stage. Then they get to integration stage. So she chooses herself. She knows how to express herself without apology, how to set boundaries, how to do all the things that keep her in the driver's seat. And she's also then learnt the process. So when she comes to the next hurdle in her life, she knows the process that she needs to go through to be able to supersede that and integrate it in the way of her choosing. So it's really, it's like you're journeying, but learning the process of how to do that for yourself later on. It's pretty, it's a pretty profound journey.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yeah. What do you feel like about like listening to that, Caitlin? Would that be an exciting journey for you? Like what are your thoughts and feelings?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, um especially, you know, taking ownership of your own choices and patterns. Um I st I I still think I there's lots of times where I'm still in that kind of victim mindset and I'm just like, why is this happening to me? Why is everything happening to me? Um, but what's your felt sense of how to shift that?

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Stop saying. Everything's happening to me. Um, but is that just on the surface level? You know, it's easy to say stop saying it, but if you're thinking it and feeling it, right? It's not just out here. It's not just in your words, it's in your mindset, it's in your body, it's a it's a signature, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

And it's it's hard to come out of something that I have done for my whole life, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Is it hard or is that just the felt like is that the agreement you're making with yourself? And I'm doing this for a reason. The reason we're having this conversation like this right now is I'm demonstrating how ownership starts. It's by recognizing, you know, this is first stage work that we're talking about right here. It's about you saying, Oh, yeah, there's things I'm doing, and I'm like, Yeah, but how deep does that go? Okay, so you can't just own the words, you have to own that that's backed up by a mindset and feelings and thoughts, right? And then I'm like, and you're like, oh, it's hard, says who? Like, why? That's is that a belief that you've formed? So I'm like, okay, here's where we go responsibility, like taking ownership, taking ownership, taking ownership, and it's also challenging your thought construct. It's like, well, how often do you tell yourself something's going to be hard? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

So, but why? A little while ago, I actually started to I would kind of set myself up for not worst-case scenario, but something so that I couldn't be disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

So it's a protection mechanism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

So I'd be like, this is going to be hard, so that I could go experience it, and then if it wasn't so hard, I wouldn't be disappointed. Then I could be like, hey, that was easy, because I'd set myself up for something to be harder than what it was going to be. So it's fear-based. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

So this is where you actually start to understand how you're structured. And that would be in that first stage that we were just talking about. So understanding how you're structured and then going, well, does that serve me? Like, what am I missing out on doing that? Like, you know, what comes with that? What's the what's the consequence of setting everything up like that? What am I getting? What am I experiencing? Do I enjoy my lived experience? You know, it's really doing a deep dive into how all of that is set up and then shifting bits. Because sometimes it's a bit like, you know, Candy Crush when you get the right thing in your boom and they all just drop down. Sometimes, or what's the other one, Tetris that does that? Yeah. Sometimes you can have a little one, like little wins, like you do on Tetris or Candy Crush, and then something can come in like we just discovered right then. That's a fear-based thing. What are you actually fearful of? And then that's a big one where you've just lined a whole heap of jewels up and it's just crushed them, yeah. And you so you get a big what we call um like a quantum jump, because then all of a sudden we've got the we've got the base of something or the matrix of what's been set up, and then we go, oh, we you jump, and then all of a sudden that's not defining you anymore. So we've got to make sure that if something like that comes back in, we've got strategies and tools in place for you to understand what's going on in that space now, and then that happens in lots of different areas. So you do these like little quantum jumps in areas, and then all of a sudden you do a whole jump to the next section, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I imagine this is where many women get frustrated. Yep because change can feel slower than insight. That's where I get frustrated. Okay, and that I think that's why I'm like, it's too hard, because it's taking too long, and I want instant. Doesn't everyone when we're so used to getting instant? Like, well, yeah, because it's kind of like I've identified there's something that I need to change, and I think it should be as easy as changing my shirt, but it's not.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

That's the problem. And that's where we come back to our women's cyclical knowledge. Everything has a gestation, a conception, a gestation, a growth, a birth, and then a living. So it's like, can you do that that quick? Like, you know, I mean, yeah, changing a shirt is a pretty baseline thing, but actually what you're talking about is a much deeper leveled item. You've got to make the shirt first. Well, it's if you think about it from the fibers. If you think about it from that space, you start to understand, like, the changing of the shirt is only a tiny bit in the journey of the shirt, right? So it's like w because we've been taught to move away from that natural birth-death cycle, we expect everything just to be in the middle all the time, just the growth stage. Everything just has to be growth, growth and change, growth and change, growth and change. We never allow time to um sit with things. Uh, like, for instance, how does that transpose into real life? So um, you have an intimate knowledge of the fact that I've been touring this year, right? But that tour has changed multiple times because it has a life of its own and things are going on outside in the world, and I've had to allow its emergence in a different way to what I intellectually thought it would happen, right? So it's taking that cyclical knowledge and applying it in each space and seeing, oh, actually, I thought I was in the growth phase, but I'm actually in the conception phase, right? And identifying where you are in all of those types of things and learning that that is actually really, really natural and normal, and like we know, babies take nine months to come into the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um I actually saw something on Facebook the other day. Um, and I hope I can explain this properly. Um, it's so simple. It was like it said, so I'm 30 this year, okay? So it said what we dreamed of, like thinking of like two partners, what we dreamed of in our 20s is what we have right now. And so I keep sitting in this space, like there's there's there's things that I want now, and I get frustrated because I can't have it now, but I forgot that in my 20s it's taken 10 years to get what I wanted in my 20s. Yeah, yeah, now I'm 30. Yeah. Almost. Exactly. So it's kind of like that's what I wished for back then. Now I've got it, but it took all that time. So like what I want now, I keep forgetting that there's yeah, little steps and motions.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

The process together. Yeah, the the conception, yeah, the gestation, yeah, the birthing, yeah, all of that. So I was gonna say something there.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

And actually, I said it to Connor last night. I said, This is what I heard. And he goes, Yeah, we do have everything we wished for, except the money. And I went, hang on, but we didn't wish for money in our 20 years. Because it wasn't a problem. Yeah, or it wasn't a focal point. Yeah, we yeah. So I was like, we did get everything we wished for. And we've worked hard to get where we had.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

And also, like over that 10-year period, you would have had things that manifested quicker than the 10-year period. Oh, for sure. Because their conception and gestation and birthing was smaller, right? In terms of quicker, easier, whatever. And there would have been things out of that, the things that you wished for that you didn't expect to get, but they they're gifts nonetheless, right? So there's so many little uh uh veins of what you're getting. So it's a it's a good thing to to say. Like, I always say to my clients, like, you're not in nappies sitting around getting your mum to wipe your little tush-tush, right? Because we change, we grow and we change, and things shift and change. It's it's so funny because we resist that all the time. Like, we constantly resist the fact that things are changed. I'm not good with I hear people say this all the time, we're not good with change. I'm like, what why? Like, what is that about for you? You know, what do you mean you're not good with change? And what they're really saying is I feel uneasy when things shift because I don't know how I'm shifting.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yes, it's um you know, I'm not good with change. You're not good with the change that I guess they they didn't want or they didn't see coming or they weren't prepared for, because there's plenty of change that we do like. Um you know, we want to paint that wall. We like that change. Yeah, that's because we chose that change. So I feel like when people say they they don't like change, it's because it they they didn't want that change.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

And also because they have or on the other side, they had an expectation about how something was going to be. Yeah, and they're so fixated on the expectation that they can't see or want anything other than that. So anything other than that is a pain in the ass or a distraction, but actually it could be the making of it, because if you just let loosen the light the reins a little, things have their own way of evolving and and forming and shaping, right? You're not you don't get you don't get up and go, okay, I'm going out today and open up the hood of your car and go, right, engine, you need to run, you need to do it like this. You don't do that. You get in your car, you turn your key, you press your button here. The expectation is that the that you don't need to tell the engine how to run, that it will run. But when we get stuck on expectations, like we need to tell every little bit of the process what it needs to do and the way in which it needs to do it.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

It's like, yeah, let it go a little bit. Yeah, and a I think a good example of um that as well is you know the whole birth experience. You know, what's your birth plan? My plan was I literally said, I just want to get to the next step each during that process. Yeah. I wasn't like um I'm I just want to dial. Just give me the epidural. No, that wasn't me. I was like, I just I'm gonna go with the flow. So I think with Ellie's birth, I I was like, I'd like to be able to get in the bath. So I did, and I got in the bath, and then I stayed in there for a little while, and then I was like, I've had enough of this. So it wasn't like I was like, this is on my birth plan, I'm gonna stain this bath, I'm gonna birth her in the bath. I was like, no, I've had enough of this, let's move to the next thing. When I'd have had enough of that, let's move to the next thing. And I just kept moving along instead of being like, this is this is the plan. Like this is the this is the route we're gonna take on our road trip, and then you know, getting a detour and going, oh, trip's ruined. We're still gonna get there. Yeah. It might take longer, and you know, it uh yeah, it doesn't really matter which way you go, how you do it, you might get there sooner because the detour might have taken sure. Yeah. You might get there later, but you're still gonna get there. You might meet somebody that you never expected to meet that could be in your life for the rest of your life. Yeah, and you know, going back to like birth, um you're still gonna get to that end. It might not look like what you thought it was gonna look like, especially when I had Ellie. They put this giant baby on my chest, and I was like, whose baby is this? And I was like, This is not the baby that I had in my head. I was like, that's not what she looks like. Okay, so I still got the outcome, of course, but it's not what I expected.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah, well, yeah, it's interesting how the mind starts to crack pictures to be okay with this baby.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I was like, this is not my baby, you you've swapped her.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

How did it fit? Isn't that funny? Is it's like you don't even know you have an expectation of how your baby will look, but you you did have one. Yeah, I was like, this is not what she looks like.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

It looks nothing like it. So it's weird.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

It's just really interesting how our mind wants to take over and craft and shape everything to be perfectly linear and fit in an equation by intellect, and it's like that's not what life is like. Life isn't follow like, and and then you find really amazing things out. Like, did you know that putting oil in your belly button is like all of your nerve endings come into your belly button, and your belly button was the first thing that was made, yeah, right? That's where your cellular reproduction starts as a in conception, right? So, like there's all these remedies that you can do by applying different types of oil into your belly button that have a huge effect on your body. Wow, I know, but we all find out and we go, that's so wild, you know. And it's like, but is it like everything is connected and has a has a life path of its own. So like I know that's totally off topic. I can't believe I was just we do that. We do do that, but um coming back to coming back to the frustration, and we're talking about that intimatic, you know, response. We that's the world we live in. Yeah, it's quick, quick, give me this, give me that. I want knowledge at my fingertips, I want this, I want that, and we're so far removed from the natural world and the way in which we are natural that we completely disregard the natural progress of things.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, considering that you will have some roadblocks or you might have to backtrack. Like you could have a breakthrough on Saturday and find yourself triggered again on Monday. You could like how do women know they're actually transforming even when it doesn't feel like it? What are the signs that something deeper is shifting beneath the surface?

SPEAKER_02 38:58

It starts to show up in their world, yeah. So all of a sudden, where they were, let's say, a boundary, right? Let's say where they were always um feeling like they were doing things not of their choosing, and then now that's showing up less and less and less and less because they're flexing a boundary, that's the manifestation of that. So that's the that's the difference between you know surface level to something shifting deeper beneath the surface because their lived experience is changing, the way they are with people are changing. Maybe their people are starting to segue out because they've actually realized they weren't living by their core values and they didn't have some healthy boundaries for themselves in place, and now people don't like that. So, yeah, which is a common occurrence, yeah, and those who are truly aligned with you will understand those shifts and changes and respect you and support those, and those who aren't will start to disappear from your life. So that's you know, everyone talks about people leaving your life, but that could very much well be the manifestation of your boundaries, yeah, yeah. Even though people see that as a really negative thing, like everything that has a beginning has an end. Why are we so resistant to that? Like I think you know, oh you don't speak to that person, why? Everyone, oh this and that, and it's like well, things can come to a natural conclusion and it's okay. Like that doesn't mean that everything that happened with that person, friendship, relationship, whatever, is invalid.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Why would you want to do that? Because there's so many great things wrapped up in that, but there's also a natural progression with things.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah, yeah, I thought of that recently, um, because the whole turning 30, and I was like, I would just love to have, you know, all these people around me who've been part of my life to celebrate. And then it made me really sad because the amount of like the amount of people, um, like friends that have like left my life, whether I let go of them or they let go of me. And it made me really sad to think about it because we had good memories and we had good times, but then I I think because then I thought, should I reach out to that person and try and like re-re connect and reconnect? And then I went, no, because this is why I cut that cord. Like, and I was like, no, I don't want to go back there. I don't want to just but I value what we had good times and there were good memories, yeah, but then there were elements that outweighed that, and I was like, I can't have you in my life anymore.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

And that's okay, yeah. So trying to be okay with that new picture, and they're they're gonna have their own story of that and their own experience of that, and that's okay too. Yeah, because more than one thing can exist at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah, but we are so resistant to shift, to change, to look at the organic nature of all things, the birth-death cycle. It's there all the time, constantly. So, yeah, that that would be my answer to that question, that you're seeing things start to change in your lived experience. And I'm gonna put a caveat on that for your highest purpose, not change in a way that is leading you into spaces and places that are not of your choosing.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, how do spaces like um Angie Rose support that process of integration rather than just providing more information?

SPEAKER_02 42:36

And she rose moves through that four state for through the rose way, it's integrated into the program. Um, and so we do we we run through that experience all the way along the program. Given it's in two days, you will experience that quite quickly. So that is good for the woman who's ready to go. You know what? I I I want some shift and I want it quite quickly. Or for the woman who's strapped for time and goes, I've got so many things, but I really know I need to prioritize myself. I want to do it in in a really like, and also here's the big thing online learning is huge now, right? But this type of work, I've done it online and it does work too, but nothing beats face to face.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

That human interaction, those questions you can ask, yeah, the feedback that you get, the the experience you get bouncing off other women.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Oh yeah, that's what I was about to say. You know, sitting in a room with other women and you might be sitting there, you know, a little bit afraid to ask a question, and then the person next to you goes, Oh, hang on, what about this? And you go, Oh my gosh, my sister speaks for me, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and you you know, you might not even know that there's a question that you need it answered. Until somebody in that room asks it for you.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

That's the power of women in circle. That's absolutely the power of women in circle. And women in creative containers that are well held and well structured so that they can just go deep. Because, gosh, as women, we can. That's one of our superpowers. That we have the ability to just strip it all back, get naked with it, right? Get and then go, right, what do I do with it from here? Like that's part of our unique makeup to be able to do that. Because we go through so many processes of identity transformation through our seasons, let alone through our seasons within seasons, you know, our lifespan. So it's just it's amazing. Women are just so amazing to me from that perspective. I just think, wow, like I love guys, don't get me wrong, but when we're talking about talking in this context, that our capacity to transform is just we we're just so powerful. Yeah, super powerful.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Before we close out, I'd love your nugget. For the woman listening who has spent years learning, growing, reading, listening, and understanding, but she still feels frustrated by the gap between what she knows and how she's living. What would you want her to know? There is a process.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Yeah, there is a process, and it is achievable, and you could do that yourself, but you need to you need the format, you need the framework so that you can go and do that for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

And you can you can learn these things through growing, greeting, listening, and understanding. But I'm just asking yourself, what am I integrating? Yeah, this is the tool analogy, right? I say this, I don't know, I need it described on my tombstone, I think, that a tool left on the shelf is useless. I could have the best fandangled power drill in the world, it could do 56 jobs, but if it sits there on the shelf and I don't pick it up and use it, it is useless. So you can't, if you just keep learning things and not integrating them, you don't action things and then when it doesn't work, action them again and again and again and again until oh I've got a bit of traction, right? You can't go to the gym once and go, I'm a buff ass chick. And like, you know, it takes six weeks for hypertrophy of the muscle to work, which means for those who don't know what hypertrophy is, to build more muscle. Six weeks before you see visible signs of muscle hypertrophy. So you can't go to the gym just once and then go, I'm buff, I've done what I want. You can't flex at all once and just go, oh yeah, it works if it doesn't work. Like, you know, anybody that's never been to the gym or any sort of exercise or even like dance, tennis, whatever activity, you can't go once and and feel comfortable with it. It it's not in your body. Yeah, you haven't you haven't learned much yet, really. You it's the doing of something that actually creates change. Yeah. So, like, are you doing the doing? What are you implementing? Have you slowed down, stopped, and pulled back, zoomed out to have a look at what am I actually doing?

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Or am I just consuming?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what is one thing that you can stop doing today that will create more transformation than consuming another piece of information?

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Write down all the things that you've learned, okay, and write down all the things that you would like to see shift and change, and see if you can draw a line between any of the two on the line on the list. Yeah. So I've learned these things on list A, these are the things I want to see change in list B. Is there anything that I can apply from list A that will make a change in list B? Right? And then start doing it. Just pick one. Just go, oh, okay, cool. So I learnt about boundaries in this workshop that I did, and I would like to have better boundaries is in week in column B. You draw a line between that. Okay, so what if I learnt in column A and how do I apply it? Yeah, right. And now what do I need to do to apply? What would need to have to change for me to apply this? What would I need to do? And then set a little plan for yourself and then do it. Yeah. And then rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. Remember, 651 times. Yeah, so like that's a lot of times, a lot of touch points. I mean, it would probably be integrated before that, but that's the the analysis. So then, okay, when that feels good, I'm doing that, I'm doing that, that's working. This is my new normal, this is my new baseline, pick the next thing on the list. Because doing seven things on the list at one time, yeah. Sorry. That's like being fucked sideways with a pogo stick. It's not gonna happen, yeah. Like it's not, it's really not like that. Yeah, we're great multitaskers, that's all fine and well, but this stuff, nah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Well, especially because often when we're multitasking, that's autopilot. Correct. And not thinking deeply about the seven things at once. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Exactly. Do one thing, do it well first, then that'll be locked and loaded. You don't need to be thinking about that anymore, then do that next thing. And the better you get at implementing your own changes, actioning them, because intentions left in this dream space stay dreams, they're not actions, they're not outcomes, they're not manifestations. So the better you get at that process, the quicker you get at it. And then you go, okay, this is another thing. Right, right, right, right. How do I know it's showing up? Well, my life is changing, I'm seeing it manifest. Okay, if something seems to devolve and not be, it's like, okay, I'm not doing that then. I've stopped doing that. What why am I why have I stopped doing that? Like you're but you're curiously observing yourself and you're asking questions, you're being really conscious about what you're doing, and you're not scared to do it. Yeah, yeah, that's the part people don't like. It's like they, oh, I don't want to accept those things of themselves. It's like when someone's I teach someone about assumption and they go, I know it's an assumption, but there is no but it is an assumption, so just stop assuming, yeah. Like you don't get to use it because you know what it is, you know it's not truth, you know it's based off trying to figure out what someone else thinks and feels about whatever, whatever, whatever. Drop it like a hot potato. Don't just keep carrying it and going, but like, no, no, you don't get to do that. It doesn't work like that, right? Because you're defying yourself. You've learnt about this cultural what assumption is and why it exists, but you yet you still want to use it in the way that you can, but it's a bit like Neo in the Matrix, you know. If you once he sees the matrix and he knows what it is, you can't unsee that. Once you know what a concept is, if you un if you don't use it, if you're trying to unsee it or ignore it, you're doing that consciously. So what are you scared of? Yeah. So after that final nugget, Caitlin, do you feel like there's something that you might integrate from today's discussion? Is there a space maybe you've identified where you are consuming information and you need to move to the next space? Is there is there any little several? Yeah. And pick one. Which one would that be that you're gonna work on? Just putting it on the spot under pressure here.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

I think maybe you're starting at I think maybe.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

I think maybe I'm picking them up today. Um statement of claim here. Yeah, not I think maybe, because that's a bit like I'm going in sideways and I'll find a back door.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

I think is okay, because you're thinking, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

I am thinking um that kind of self-talk, the negative self-talk, um, that I I want to start changing that the whole I can't do that. That's too hard. I want to try and try or do? I will. This is where I'm nailing it down. I will. Yes. Um, I'm thinking, no, because I feel like that's still the awareness stage if I'm just kind of picking up like going, catching myself when I when I do it. What will you do when you catch it? Here's the next space. What about I'm trying to think of an example of me doing the negative talk. So maybe it would be something like, I'm not very good at cooking. Let's go back to the first example. Um, if I catch myself saying that in my head out loud, maybe rephrase it. What would you rephrase it? Instantly and say it out loud. The not good at cooking thing came up because I tried to boil eggs one day. And I tried to do hard-boiled eggs and they came out perfectly soft boiled.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Oh, well that I would go, okay, so what I've just learned is cook them longer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Yeah, so if I'm if I'm saying I'm not good at cooking, I hate cooking, rephrase it to, well, I didn't do it right that time. Maybe next time. Not maybe next time. Next time I'll know better. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Next time I'll cook it longer. Or if the statement, like, so I we talk about pivot, right? So if the statement comes up, I'm not good at cooking, I'd go, that's not actually true. Yeah. Yeah? So you want to meet it where it is. That's not actually true. I struggle to enjoy cooking, but I but I'm working on getting better at it.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

That's all really believable. It's all really true. And it's the deeper truth behind what's actually going on. Just haven't stopped to tell yourself that. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's quicker to go, I'm shit at cooking. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than saying, or it could be, you know, I'm good at I'm I'm crap at cooking or I'm not good at cooking. It could be like, oh, it's actually this is an area I'm working on. I'm working at getting better at cooking. And that's going to come in time. So you're really gentle with yourself. You're meeting yourself and you're addressing the comment rather than addressing the action that's you've done in terms of the cooking. That's a different statement. But this statement here is meeting that that belief or that statement about yourself and actually meeting it exactly where it's at and reframing it like you discussed in a way that uh impresses a different nervous system response as well as getting you to shift your mindset into a space where it doesn't work when you say that. You're not you're not you're actually redirecting it, you're teaching your nervous system to stay regulated rather than dysregulated.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

Yeah. And then let's just say you do cook the eggs and they come out not the way you wanted, then be like, okay, so what did I learn here? Okay, so three and a half minutes isn't enough. It needs to definitely be five or four. Is that something I want to write down so that I know that for next time to use as a resource? Okay, cool. So what do I want to do now? Do I want to chuck them back in the water and keep cooking them, or are we just gonna go with the softies? They're gonna have some dippy eggs. Okay, so we're gonna have dippy eggs, so I've pivoted. And none like in that section, there was no negative talk. It was just, oh okay, so that didn't quite turn out the way I expected, but that's cool. What did I learn? What do I want to apply from that and where do I want to go with it? Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

So um if you were listening to this today, Caitlin, would you feel like there could be items that you could go away, tools that you could go away and start looking at things?

SPEAKER_00 57:18

I've I think I'd be able to start, but then I would from from this today, I would feel like I would need to go and like get help to implement. Yeah. Yeah. So if something in this conversation resonated, perhaps it's because you recognized yourself in it. Maybe you can't cook hard-boiled eggs. If you recognized the endless learning, the constant searching, the belief that the next answer is just around the corner. Sometimes what we're seeking isn't more information, it's the courage to embody what we already know. That's exactly the kind of work women step into inside spaces like Angie Rose. Definitely. Not learning more, becoming more. We'll pop the links in the show notes if you'd like to explore that experience further. But for now, thank you for being here and for being part of these conversations with us. And thanks, Jo. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Caitlin, thank you for joining us. And thanks to all those listeners out there for joining us to this episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. We look forward to catching you in the next conversation. Take care, bye-bye. Bye. Firstly, a deep thank you to our guests today for their honesty, wisdom, and the courage to have those real conversations. If something's landed for you today, don't brush it off. That pull you feel, it's your next edge calling. If you'd like to explore working with me, hit me up on my socials or on my website at joannlee.com.au. Until next time, keep showing up for yourself because you're worth it with love. Joe