It's not 'selfish' to want more

Why does wanting more feel so uncomfortable for so many women?

More fulfilment.
More alignment.
More depth.
More from life, relationships, work, motherhood, purpose… and self.

In this episode of Every Womyn & Her Dog, we unpack the conditioning many women carry around desire, ambition, needs, and expansion — and why wanting more is so often mistaken for selfishness.

I’m joined by Katelyn Dwyer-Taylor and special guest Belinda Dykes for a grounded, honest (and deep dive) conversation around the tension women often feel between gratitude and growth… contentment and longing… caring for others and honouring themselves.

Together, we explore:

-Why women are often taught to minimise their needs and desires

-The difference between being selfish and being healthily self-focused

-Scarcity thinking and the belief that there’s “not enough” to go around

-What begins to shift when a woman allows herself to want more

-The discomfort, guilt, resistance, and identity changes that can surface during growth

-What it means to honour your desires instead of suppressing them

-How wanting more may actually be a signal — not a flaw

This conversation is for the woman who quietly feels:
“There has to be more than this…”

Not because her life is bad, but because something deeper inside her is asking to be acknowledged.

And maybe the real work isn’t learning how to silence that desire… but learning how to trust it.

About Our Guest — Belinda Dykes

With over three decades of experience across culinary, catering, and training roles, Belinda brings a rich depth of wisdom shaped by hospitality, connection, and care.

At the heart of her work is the belief that food is far more than nourishment — it is community, celebration, generosity, and human connection. Her grounded presence and genuine love of people bring warmth and insight to this conversation.

Explore More

If this episode resonated with you and you’re feeling called toward “something more,” you can explore Joanne’s offerings below:

And She Rose — Joanne’s 2-day immersive women’s experience currently touring across Australia

Embodied Womyn 1:1 — personalised coaching and therapeutic support for women seeking deeper transformation

Her Circle - a week long intensive immersion program that honours and seamlessly blends the ancient craft of basket weaving with profound exploration into women’s development, rites of passage, and connection with the Divine Feminine.

And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps more women find these conversations.

Original Soundtrack composed and produced by Flava Productions.

Follow here: https://www.instagram.com/flavaproductions/

Follow Katelyn – Taylor Made Digital Support
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/taylormadedigitalsupport

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello everyone and welcome to Every Woman and Her Dog, a podcast where we talk about the things women whisper about in kitchens, voice note to their friends, and think about at 2am. I'm your host, Joanne Lee, coach, therapist, and change maker. Each episode we explore the realities of womanhood and cover topics ranging from identity shifts, feminine cycles to self-leadership, relationships, burnout, and ambition. Bringing to the surface the quiet reinventions happening behind closed doors for women. This is the being and becoming of personal agency. Let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. Today's conversation might challenge a few things you've been taught. Today we're talking about the idea of wanting more. More from your life, from your relationships, and from yourself. Because for a lot of women, that desire doesn't feel clean. It feels uncomfortable, loaded, or even sometimes selfish. Somewhere along the way, many of us were taught that wanting more means you're ungrateful, you're too much. Or you're not satisfied with what you already have. But what if that's not the truth? What if wanting more isn't selfish, but actually a signal, a calling to a next space? So today we're going to unpack that. Where these beliefs come from, why they stick, and what it actually means to be self-focused in a healthy, grounded way. Before we dive in, I want to introduce who's in our conversation today. I'm joined by Caitlin Dwyer Taylor from Taylor Made Digital Support, a mum of two girls, and the woman behind the scenes helping bring so much of my work to life. Welcome. Thank you. You're welcome. And we're also joined by Belinda Dykes today. Belinda has over three decades of experience in culinary and catering and also training roles. She brings a depth of knowledge shaped by passion, curiosity, and a genuine love of hospitality. All things food. At her core is a belief that food is far more than nourishment, it is connection, celebration, and care. Always eager to learn and evolve, she continues to explore new ideas while staying grounded in what matters most: nurturing others, creating memorable experiences, and bringing people together around a shared table filled with warmth, generosity, and great company. Belinda is also my Food Extraordinaire for our week-long immersion, her circle. Welcome Belinda.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Thanks for having me. It's lovely to be with you, women.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

You're welcome. Alright, let's go. Let's get into it. Caitlin, you're on.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Let's go. I think this is such an important conversation because wanting more can feel really conflicting. On one hand, I can feel the pull for something more, but on the other, there's this voice that questions it like I shouldn't want that. So today I really want to dive deep into this, why wanting more can feel so uncomfortable, and whether that actually means something is wrong or something is ready. Let's start here, ladies. Alright. Why has wanting more been framed as selfish, especially for women? Where does that belief actually come from? And what's the difference between being selfish and being self-focused in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Um okay, so well, I mean, I've always got a lot to say. So, first of all, I always like to put it back to Caitlin because it seems to work really, really well. What are your thoughts, Caitlin, on whether wanting more is selfish?

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Um, I I kind of think about it in two ways. When I think about wanting more in a way of um like education, like improving myself and doing more courses, I'm always like more, more, more, and I don't find anything wrong with it. But I on like the more lifestyle side of it, I'm also like I want I want more at home, like I want, I want that bigger house. Um and that makes me feel selfish, like I'm not content with the life I have. So I'm kind of in like too depends on the situation.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Foot in each camp. Yeah, yeah, a foot in each camp. Okay, so why don't we start by just working with what you said there? Why do you want the bigger house?

SPEAKER_02 5:25

I think that all just comes down to I want the well, I want the bigger house so that I can have the family to go into that. Like I because we were kind of in a stage where like we'd like to have another child, but we don't have anywhere to put the child. So I think that's that's my main thing for wanting a bigger house. It's not just because I want more space, I don't want to have empty rooms, I don't want to have like a guest room and stuff. I actually I want the the bigger house for a purpose.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

From a practicality perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, isn't it? Because once upon a time, like I shared a room with my sister, and that was common, like to share rooms. And briefly did, yes. Yeah. Although it was quite horrific for both of us at times. We speak fondly of it, and also like it was serious. There were some serious moments then, right? Um, I've got like bumped PTSD sometimes, but um uh I think our idea of what more is has changed over the decades, and also I feel like it's different from men to women based off our conditioning, how we grew up, what our environment was like, what we perceive as more, and what's the difference between like essential things and uh maybe I'm looking for the right word there, like eccentric overspending, or with like what does that look like? It looks like different things to different people, like so. I think aga going to the first space of unpacking, well, what is more? What does that look like? So you've just sort of said touched on a few points there. Is it more money? Is it more knowledge? Is it more space? Is it um more love? Is it more connection? Is it more children? Like, and what makes us feel like any of those things is wrong? I wonder. I wonder how that comes in. Because your perception of what's more and mine might be different, and Belle's might be different again. So it's understanding what it means to ourselves first, and then unpacking that and looking at our own personal perspective of that and going, why do I think like that? Why do I feel like that? And then coming like it's natural for us, like you said, to feel the pull to something more because there's always a pull to our next level, our next space, and that might look like oh, we're extending the house because we need more space, but you're extending yourself by maybe managing the build and doing all these other things. So there's there's always in the more there's a next level of many things, not just superficial items, um, in most cases, and then then that that counterweight that we were talking about that you question, well, what what is the more about? I think that's healthy and natural because don't you want to know what your intentions are and why you're doing something? That sounds like a conscious, informed choice, then, and being able to not justify it but reflect it back to yourself to make sure it's actually what you're after is really important. What's your take on that, Belle?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, just listening to you there. Um, I I think the first question that popped into my mind was selfish compared to what? It's such a subjective point of view, because it would vary with all of us. And selfish has for a very long time had such a negative connotation because to be seen to be selfish is to appear to be ungrateful. Yet we're not, and so we end up in a very conflicted space, I think, with that whole question being posed. So, yeah, my first question is you know, compared to what? Are we being selfish compared to an expectation or what society says, and and and so it just raises more and more questions that I think a person needs to unpack. Um, and I actually think we should learn to have a healthy relationship with selfish. It it has it's one of those things I think we need to learn to weigh up for ourselves, but we need to find the tools to do that because it's so very easy, you know, for someone to accuse us of being selfish, and we retract back into a box of going, okay, I should just be content, I should just accept, I should, but what's the cost to us for doing that?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

And I wonder, like, if you unpack the word itself, self, and then ish, like ish meaning of you, right? And self meaning of you, and one's using that word to say you're all you're only thinking of yourself or you're only doing for yourself, but like I'm just going straight back to probably something that I say every episode, it's the oxygen mask theory, right? You've got to put your own oxygen mask on first in order to help others. So then if we become selfless, where we think less of ourselves and we do less of ourselves, isn't that actually sitting in a sacrificial space? So, and why do we always get this? It's either either, either you're selfless or you're selfish. Like, we don't live in black and white world, we don't live in that big um polarity of it's one or the other. There's a lot of grey area in between that, and I think you're right, I feel like selfish is a loaded word that's been indoctrinated with lots of negativity, and it's probably why when I speak with women, I speak about being self-focused, and then that way we sort of drop off that loaded word that's had so many runs at the title to be weaponized and to make I mean I I I I'm just speaking for people in general, everywhere, whether it be a man or a woman, to make us feel less than, and also like what is like everyone has their own agenda, everyone is running their own life, they're their own lead character in their own story. So what might look like someone being selfish to me, is it actually?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Because you know, I might get up and um get up early and what like do the kid the early morning kid thing with my kids when I did when when they were younger, or get up and I do for me personally, I'm up early, I always do the organise the kitchen in the morning while I have a cup of tea in that. And my partner might be sleeping in and I might think, God, they're selfish, they don't get up and help me, but maybe that extra sleep is what they need to turn up for the rest of the day. Did I ask for their help? Did I say, hey, would you be able to hop up in the morning and and sort this thing out for me? Did I or am I just assuming they're not? So there's another pitfall, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Come into a judgment space, absolutely very much. And I think that's what we need to remove the judgment on ourselves but on others as well. And again, selfish compared to what? And is it really as mums? I think of well, I wouldn't just say mums, I think there's jobs, there's many things where we give and we give and we give. And to suddenly pull back, you know, it could be stamped with um, are you being selfish? But you know what? Is that where we've lost our boundaries? Or we're always overdoing it. Yeah, and self-preservation actually requires, you know, being selfish actually can be a really healthy thing. Self-preservation might require it for you to put that boundary and go, No, I am walking out the door at this time, or no, I am going to arrange to have a day off and meet needs that I have. Um, in motherhood, take the day a week to have a bath. That was mine. It was like lock the door, um, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Put the headphones in.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I I hear nothing. Walk out the world. I I'm a bit like you. I would I would like to I would did, I would get up early just have that very peaceful cup of tea before the mayhem of the day began. But uh selfish, selfishness perhaps should change to giving to yourself in really required ways. Definitely. Yeah, even l last night's a funny example.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Um, I was like, I'm going to have a shower. So I I will admit the shower did start with showering the baby with me. And then I passed her over. And usually I would um I would have like a quick shower and I would dry off really quick and then you know get dressed and back in it. But then yesterday I was like, no, I'm going to take my time and I'm gonna do the whole routine, and then I'm not gonna get dressed straight away. I just wrapped the towel up and I went and laid on the bed. Awesome. And I just and I just went, I'm air drying.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

I'm taking a moment, I'm having a breath.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

And yeah, especially like being followed all day by these two little people. I was like, no, no, I'm just gonna just gonna air dry over here and they can do something else.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

The world will be selfish. That was brilliant, exactly. How but how spontaneous of you to make that choice too and give yourself permission. I think that's something we as women or we don't do because of expectation. Um and and it's really changing our relationship with this whole perception of selfish.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Absolutely, and also like so the difference between selfish and self-focused, like I said, selfish is loaded, it's a loaded word. Self-focused and selfish could mean exactly the same thing, but when we talk about being self-focused, it means that we are in a place where we are assessing, refining, reflecting, and implementing our best versions, and that takes time. You can't just, you know, download that, oh yeah, I'm off. It gets easier, but it takes time, and then when you're navigating through different spaces and places, and you're, for lack of a better word, in a contrasting experience that requires more of you, then that takes a longer time. So what is the problem with that? What is the problem with actually being able to do that? Well, it might look like to other people that you're not doing anything, but there's a lot going on, and you're working to turn up as your best self, and then that means what comes out of that is also questions for other people. It's like, okay, so I've reflected and I've done all this process and I'm understanding how I'm turning up here, and that self-focus is the time that I take to do that, and now I've got questions that go outside of me. It's like, how much of this is my is mine to own, and then how much do I need to turn up in those spaces? Like you said, do I need to pull back here? Because I'm actually doing myself a disservice, and that self-focused time has allowed me to go through that process and then go, ah, okay, uh these are the choices I need to make. Because we are the designers of our world, we are the ones that are accepting and rejecting the things that we do say. We have personal autonomy and personal agency that we don't exercise a lot. So to me, being self-focused is something that's super healthy because then you're always holding yourself to a level of um a level of accountability. And I'm gonna throw this over to Belle, and this might lead from um wherever Caitlin's going with the next question. Where has what a perceived selfish choice led you in your life to create huge shifts and changes?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Um, okay, I think, yeah, I I understand what you're sort of referencing there, given that we know each other so well. Um, and and that is a great question because I guess my mind's going down a particular thought here as well. Selfish, like we've talked small things, having a bath, you know, making time for ourselves, but sometimes we can sit in a a great space of conflict because there is a decision we want to make that within the constraints of our life will be seen as very selfish. And I did make a choice that was completely in opposition to um the family I was raised in. Um but the question became in the end what is the cost if I don't make this decision? Um and and therefore it it's becomes a question then about the execution of how I did it. You know, I I tried to do it with as much love and care while explaining that the choice I was making was for the reason you know, I was becoming an adult, and this was the choice that I was going to make. And it was up against some pretty heavy resistance and judgment and culture of the family I was brought up in. Um but I have no regret about that choice. But that's you know, and at that younger age, now that I'm a bit older, and it's something that um has popped into mind as we were talking, because even um only haven't done this in the last couple of years with you, um, the exercise of the core values. Yeah. Like you kind of know who you are and what you stand for. Sure, I was younger when I made that decision. But it's something that I've actually given my kids to do because and and it will be an ever-evolving and changing thing, anyone that might jump in and do that particular aspect with you. Um it gives you the filter by which to really analyse yourself and that choice that you're making with whatever tools I had back then, it really became a point of I can't not make this decision. I'm actually making this decision. Um funnily enough, something that again making decisions, it's you do have you're gonna weigh up. What are the consequences? What's the cost? What you know, what's all these things. But at the some total end of all of that, if I accept ABC consequence, A B C outcome, I don't know what the known is. I only know that at this moment in time, this is a decision I have to make for my own growth, for my own for who I'm choosing to step in the world to be. Um so yeah, um that no doubt that was perceived as selfish, you know, and and that can be really hard spaces with family. Totally. Um it can relevant, I guess, in everyone's circumstances, different, make or break many things, and anyone's choice then of a relationship moving forward. Um it it's your capability to own that perceived selfish decision is really important.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

And I think also, like for me, I made a really strong decision at a very young age. Like I left home really early, and I've always heard like you didn't think about anybody else, like you didn't think about what was going to happen. And I and I know at that stage I was in a place where I was like, if I don't make this choice, I will disappear.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, I felt like my soul would die. I will disappear. That's that intense.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I will not be the person I'm here to be, I will not be able to show up in the world the way that I need to show up, and that's bizarre for someone at 14 years of age to understand that and know that. And I haven't been able to articulate that. I didn't, I couldn't back then. Now, with the skill set that I have, I can. And there's many other things that sit around that, but isn't it interesting? Like to that, it's perceived as a self. Act. And I I think for me, really coming back to this question, you know, what's the difference between selfish and self-focused in this world, in the world that we live in, with all of the loadedness that's in the word selfish. My understanding of selfish, if we were to use it in a different context to self-focused, is being so self-absorbed with yourself that nothing else matters. You take no can consideration, there is no compassion. It's all about you and your choices. You don't take responsibility for your choices, you don't care how you're turning up in the world, you're kind of like a baby blomping all over the place when they learn how to walk. Like there's no regard for anybody else or anything else or what you're spewing out into the world. That is very egoic. It's from that space of the ego, I, I, I. And perhaps once upon a time, that's what was perceived as selfish. But now anything that turns a mirror on yourself or um uh gets you sitting in a seat that you make a choice that doesn't agree with somebody else, now that's selfish. Like that seems to be coupled in with the word selfish. So, as opposed to self-focus, where you turn the mirror on yourself for the processes of like reflection and assessment and of what you need and how you've turned up and what you've done, and then decide to implement changes and strategies based off being the better version of yourself, which to me is from the intuitive space, from the higher self space, as opposed to the other place that I was talking about, where you're self-consumed, and you're just there's just no very easy response, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Oh, you're being selfish. And again, uh you know, perhaps you can actually agree with the person, yeah, on the outside I can understand how for you it perceives, you know, you perceive it that way. Can I explain further? Or do you need to? Well, you don't need to always, but that that's a great way for them to understand you, and likewise it's a great way if we are feeling affronted by someone that that they're making a decision that to us is completely selfish, it's a moment to stop and go, Oh, that's you know, because we do.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

And I also think we're very frivolous with words, like we don't actually say what we mean. I I I'm privy to that all the time, right? So instead of saying, Oh, the choice that you made there really can like it it affected me, and this is how it affected me, because I feel like you didn't consider this, and you didn't consider this, and that impacts both of us, instead, we'll say you're selfish. Yeah, which is because the other requires more fast work, exactly, because the other requires more conversation, better communication, and two people holding space, and that is just way too much time for a lot of people, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah, I I was thinking that like if you know someone says to you you're being selfish, I it's almost like that person's being selfish because they've they've just taken on how they feel and they're offended. Um but they actually haven't considered your reasoning behind the choices, they're just reacting off how they feel about your choice and not thinking about why you're making that choice or your reasoning or anything. Or inquiring, yeah. So they're like saying, You're selfish, but it's like, well, but you're also thinking about yourself because you're not considering the whole picture and the ripple effect and stuff. Definitely. Yeah. So we've gone pretty deep. Um, shall we go deeper? Okay. Let's go there, ladies. So, what have women been taught, directly or indirectly, about their desires, their needs, and wanting more from life? And how does that link into things like scarcity thinking or feeling like there's only so much available to go around? I think this is this is a very much like like a culture and a family thing that it kind of revolves around. It's like, oh well, this is how we've done it, so this is how you're gonna do it. My brain just went straight to like like a little Italian family with like a restaurant, and it's like, your father. He got this from his his father, and so you're gonna do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for them.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah, why would you want anything different? This is all you should want. Yeah, I feel like it's very yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

How you raised the culture. Well, I mean, what I love right here, and I just like to note for our listeners, is we've got three different women at three different stages of their life. So we've got Caitlin who's in the mother season, she's in the peak of her mothering. You've got me who's perimenopausal pausal, so I'm like in the in-between, I'm in between mother and marga, I'm transitioning, and then we've got Belle in her MAGA years. So I think there's three different perspectives on, and maybe they all converge anyway, but I think over space and time we gather knowledge and experience. So I'm gonna hand over to Belle from her perspective and her stage of life. She's a little bit, she's our our our our eldest leader here today. She's not that old. Share your knowledge. From your perspective, Belle, uh, what do you feel as a woman you've been taught directly or indirectly about your desires, your needs, and wanting more from life?

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Um, oh I I would say I was brought up within a very strict um construct and narrative. And when you say strict, what do you mean? It it was very religious, very traditional, um quite patriarchal. Very. Yes. Yes, very. Interestingly though, um, that was with my mother. Um my father was not a part of that. And then in my young adult years, when I made that choice to walk away or or to step away, make other plans and directions for my life. Yeah. Um, you know, I had forged a much deeper relationship with my dad, who is someone who I have really enjoyed that relationship growing, and his wife now, um, that they remain curious about who I am and the path and decisions, and sure, there's there's still that patriarchy, you know, that there's the whole marriage, and then what should be expected in that, but I think that that young lady that made that decision has continued with me throughout life. I don't your maiden, yeah, I would still think about it a little bit differently, and I think that's impacted who I was as a parent. Um, and just yet I'm not gonna say there wasn't times that things felt selfish to me, even, but then I would sit with that, and I would challenge it. I I challenge the norm of everything. Yeah, I guess is.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Do you think because you made such a strong decision at a young age from a place of deep conditioning, yeah, that is why you do that? Do you feel like because when we're talking about birthright? Yeah, well, of course it is, but I feel like when we're put in spaces and places of extreme perspective, yeah, right, and quite restrictive.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Um, so when we're put in those places and then we go, this box is too small for me, I want out, all that, you're breaking through all this conditioning, right? This a lot of conditioning, especially in your younger years where we're so like our critical analysis in our brain, it doesn't separate conscious and unconscious um thought until we're around seven, six or seven. So everything that you're soaking up like a sponge until that age goes all plants into the subconscious mind. That's where we know we've got environmental conditioning from. And then and then our experiences after that continue to reaffirm that. So at that age, if you are being told that trees suck oxygen from us and they are the the the enemy, you will continue to have narratives that support that in your family construct.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

And what are they based on though? They're based on fear, and that's exactly what pops to mind when you say that. It's like in making the choice that I did, yes, I was told I was selfish, but then I was loaded with all the things that was going to be bad and awful that was going to be a good thing. Well that have been part of the conditioning, right? Yeah, and so I think if we look to to the question that you're asking you to think in scarce, what is all of that thought process attached to? It's attached to a fear. Yeah. And fear-based choices, yeah. And so, you know, to again, if someone perceives us as being selfish, what is it that they're fearing in the choice that we're making? True. Because sometimes and and that's when you shatter that illusion, that that concept, that belief, um, one of the first things I thought when I stepped away was, oh, the world's not as scary as they made out. You know, straight away. There's the glass ceiling on boom, straight through it. This fear is is not real. Yeah, um, it's perceived. Yeah and indoctrinated too. Yeah. Anything in that narrative that we're telling ourselves of, oh, I'm being selfish, yeah, what is it we're actually fearing from making the choice that we'd really like to make?

SPEAKER_00 32:16

As women, what do you what do you feel like we've been taught taught either, you know, indoctrinated with or through society? What do you think we've been taught about our desires, our needs and wanting more? Oh, they did not come first.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

We we were down the ranks. The what? You know, I mean I'm sorry, what's your desire? Exactly. Desire?

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Women desire? What oh blasphemy.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah, yeah, you know, um, and that we we just shouldn't, you know, and and I've seen the sadness of that for women where they would have, if they could have made other decisions. I have had um family members say to me, Oh, if I thought I could get a job and financially pay for myself, I would have done this. And and that's not to to step away from a whole family situation. That was just because they would have loved to have gone and done art classes. Because there was this burning passion inside of them to follow something. And and look, we do have to reflect on scarcity can be a real thing, you know. It is a real thing. I have grandparents that came through a depression and more, and and the the scarcity mindset, I often reflect this with my children, it was a real thing. We actually don't know what that feels like.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

In the physical form.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yeah, and so we do have to allow some real compassion and kindness for where that's a real and genuine thing that scarcity is experienced. But doesn't mean our mindset has to say, stay there. Do we have to put the lid on it and say this is all my life can be?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

And what's really interesting through that time is there were a lot of entrepreneurs that didn't experience that scarcity because they ran with a different mindset at that time, and that put them in lots of different positions, and we're talking about sort of post-war. So, um, a lot of people decided to do exactly what you just said then to not feed into that scarcity mindset and to look at the other side, the consistent, the consistent, uh, abundant side of things, and what does this opportunity give me? And what options do I have, and where can I go with this and grow and grow and grow? And so that didn't become their reality, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:34

And that you know, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

But the general population, the general population aren't taught to think like that. No, where it's deal with what you've got, accept what you have, and think about the narratives that have come out of that time. Like, if you want more, you're selfish. That's come out of that time, that's gas in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

You accept what you've got, exactly, and not, you know, exactly discomfort for others, basically.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Don't cat your chickens before they hatch. There's a goody, an oldie but a goodie, right? Yeah, yeah, don't want for more. I've heard that so many times, like coming through. And if you sort of sit now and uh Caitlin's brain's starting to go and look for all these other things that she's heard before that confirm that because all of our razzers are now going off our head looking for those other confirmations of like I I know for a fact that my mum used to say money is the root of all evil. Oh gosh, we've heard that. Right? And I took it on board because that's what I was told, and that was I was told to believe. I was also told to believe that people that are rich or that have an abundance of resources are selfish. And I'm like, is that actually the case? Because they've had to do the work, a lot of them, to bring their mindset on board, to think in an abundance space and consistently act to create those resources and opportunities for themselves. Yet here we are going, money's the root of all evil, and that separates people with an abundance of resources versus the rest of us. Don't get me wrong, there's some crazy ass things going on in the world, and not everything fits into this narrative, but just as a generalization, for a lot of people, that is not real, like that is not where they come from, that is not how they um they've built. Like, I know my husband and I, like, we have worked our lives and we have quality improved our house and done lots of stuff. We've done a lot of work to be where we are, yet we would have our our kids would come in and say, Oh, my friends think we're rich. Because they come from a different space, and um, like what is rich anyway? It it exists in lots of different spaces, but it's so interesting to perceive like that wasn't an easy win. There was a lot of work and a lot of exchange put in for us to to expand our house or renovate our house. It wasn't just something I plucked off the tree and went, oh, there we go, we're all done. Excellent. So it's interesting to see just how far that scarcity mindset spans and the things that we've been indoctrinated with, and then as women, it's a whole nother level.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

We uh look, I think we have to give praise to women that have come before us and forged a lot of the pathways into things that are accessible to us now.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

I mean, we weren't even voting here in 1970. We couldn't open a bank account, right, as a woman without our husbands until I think it was 1974 or 73. Like, what the actual heck?

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah. And we're dismantling so much of those preconceptions. That it's interesting you brought up about and and it's that thing of thinking people with money and wealth are are above us or untouchable or out of our reach or that sort of thing. I had the great privilege of working with some great people in Sydney, and they're the ones that had the bucks to own the restaurants. They were not in any way um behaved in a way that they were above us. Yeah. They were in the pit doing the work and the most approachable down-to-earth. So I think more and more we're experiencing that and we're able to dismantle. I know I share that with my children. That there should these should not be the definitions of who you are, how much money you've got in the bank account, you know. I'd like to think our values and elements, yeah. And certainly they give us sway and they're things that we should strive for.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

But um and they create opportunities, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah. And and that's so do you have the opportunity to go out there and create it, just like you've said. Exactly. You and your husband created this for yourselves. All of us now have that opportunity. It is a mindset and a choice. Absolutely. The the the class ceilings aren't there anymore.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Oh, they're there. They just look different. They yeah, true that. True that. Because like when you talk about, say, desires, right? We can talk about financial desires. There's a lot of women my age talking about financial desires, but they're scared to do anything or they don't know how to do them, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Knowledge is, yeah. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Because there's a long way to go in that space. I mean, I've talked to Belle before and with um another friend of ours, Gillian, about how we we don't talk about finances as women. Like that's a glass ceiling. Yeah, we've talked about that. So now we've made a pact when we get together to say, how's your finances going? and actually have a real conversation about where we're at. So for the benefit of us improving those situations and sharing knowledge, like we do so well in so many other areas as women, but so there's that, but what about our sexual desires? Like, when we start talking about that, if a woman starts talking about her sexual desires, sometimes it's like you can be branded as a slut, you could be branded as promiscuous, you could be branded as all of these other names that have been impressed and fortified on us when we talk about our sexuality as women, because it was so grottaged and so repressed in so many ways that to talk about pleasure, I mean, we all know that female um mutilation is still happening in some cultures, and that um like this makes me laugh because I just think it's so crazy that you know um there's an account of a man through the period of the witch trials that located a clitoris and said that that's what qualified you as a witch. Oh wow. Yes. And of course the word exactly for all of those that don't know, the word witch comes from the word wicca, and wica means herbal law, right? It just means a medicine woman. But of course, there's been so many narratives put all over the top of that, and oh my god, we've that's a whole nother episode. But um, I just go like we feel like, yeah, we can vote, we can open bank accounts and do this, but like, how far have we actually come and how much have we turned the mirror on ourselves to see, you know, is it selfish? Like, what about the fact that we take longer to orgasm than men do? And there's all this talk in the man's world about oh, you gotta warm her up and you gotta get it, you know, it takes her so much longer than it takes me, and oh, like I just wanna get, you know, I just I couldn't be bothered. Like, and it's selfish. Like, how many women have been in relationships and marriages where their sexual needs were not advocated for? Their pleasure, their places of um ecstasy and exploration were put, well, we've been indoctrinated. Like if a young if a young boy walks around manhandling his junk, right, it's seen as normal and natural because they just have always got their hands down their pants. It's really normal. It's also part of them developing their genitalia. Like I've raised two boys, you know, if stretching the penis and the foreskin is part of helping the penis grow the way it should, right? So it should be handled, you know, and done. And also, exactly. That's like from a scientific perspective. Um, and then of course, there's the orientation with themselves from a self-pleasure perspective. Now, imagine, yeah, she knows where I'm going. She knows exactly where I'm going. I don't want to imagine. But but it's real. Look at your response to that. What's the problem with the girl doing that?

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Oh, because it's so considered taboo. But it's like a journey. You're a tiny girl. You know, when it goes back beyond that, it's even just being in the space of sensuality. Oh no, but you know, it's a big moment, you know, let's let's teach blocks there's a bit of sensuality that can be happening.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

It's something.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Oh my god, that could explode into so many conversations at this moment.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Isn't it the deeper dive that's important for us to actually recognise? Well, what is true? What do I think? What do I feel? What's showing up? What is actually my construct? And how much of that is of my choosing? And how much of that do I want to change? Yeah. Well, as a mother of daughters, Caitlin, how do you respond to that statement?

SPEAKER_01 44:40

She's on the spot. This is just fuel for you as they get older. Because it is a space of discomfort. And I and making a selfish decision can feel really uncomfortable. Is it a selfish decision? Well that's but isn't that what we're saying? We're questioning what's going on. That's exactly what it's questioning, isn't it? And and you know, our social constraints would have once upon a time said so.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

And still do in many places.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yes. And culturally and you know, within expectation. I mean, look, we still have child brides, we have we still have so much that's gone on within a construct that needs to be challenged. Yeah. And anyone in those cultures that chooses otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Yeah. I want to make a shout out to men, because I know I said female um uh mutilation is still happening, and so is it in men because circumcision is classed as male mutilation. You're born with that piece of skin. Yeah, yeah, it came with you. Yeah, it wasn't a rip here after birth. You know, there was no perforation there. So, you know, men are also going through that as well. It's it's it's it's actually mutilation. It's a male mutilation as well.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah, I actually thought about that the other day because I was like, oh, if we um if we were to have a boy, I was like, what would I do about that? Because I remember when I was um pregnant with Ellie, the oldest, and I was in like a like an antenatal group, and it was COVID time, so it was all online. Oh yeah. Um and a lot of because there was very few girls born in that um in that like it was like a five months that we were all like pregnant together, so there was a lot of boys. So that was like the hot topic. They were like, oh, what are we gonna do? Apparently there's like this specialist and they only do it at this age, and then but blah blah blah. And there was like all this stuff about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Imagine if that group were talking about cutting out clitoris, yeah, yeah. Like seriously, yeah, and then that gives us some perspective, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:45

And at that time I was kind of like, oh yeah, like if I was having a boy, like, oh, because I didn't know uh any different, like it seemed to be the normal thing. And then it was only like recently that I was like, if we were to have another baby, and they were a boy, would I do that? And then my brain was like, Why would I do that? And all I could think, I was like cringing at the thought of doing this procedure to this tiny baby, and going, why? Because yeah, I was like, why? If that's how we're born, why?

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Well, see, this is why, just so we know. Fun fact. Don't know if you're gonna find it. You're gonna do it because dad's well, that's that point, right? But where does it come from? And I don't think you're gonna get this in your trivia nights, but you can lock this one in as a a bit of trivia. Oh, it's not trivia, it's fact. The Roman Catholic Church said that they introduced it for cleanliness because for the land people bathed left, but actually it wasn't that, it was to to reduce men masturbating. Interesting. How's that going? Yeah, I don't think it meant. Well, yeah, it didn't stop them, and should nor should it, but yeah, it was actually seen as a deterrent then, so men would like feel badly about that area of themselves, which was instituted by the church, and because they didn't want to encourage self-love, self-umerance.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Euphoria too.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And this is how you know men have been impacted by these choices that were made by lots of men many, many, many, many eons ago. That if yes, the patriarchy has had a huge effect on us as women, but it also impacts men, and they don't even know a lot of that. Yeah. Well, okay, we went down there.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

That was deeper than I expected. I could not have foreseen that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

I notice you avoided my question too.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Question. Ask the questions. Ah, so moving on. Okay. Um, so looking at what happens when women start allowing themselves to want more, what shifts in how she sees herself, her life, what she's available for? Um, and I imagine it's not always comfortable what comes up for women when they start stepping into that.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

No, it's not. Because it's the glass ceilings thing that we were talking about earlier. Like when you start to allow yourself to want more, you start to say and question, what do I become? What can I do? What is possible? What can I achieve? Do I does that way of thinking, and look, this comes back to identity work. When we start to identify with ourselves and understand what we do, how we do it, and what mechanisms are running in the background without punishment or judgment, sitting as a witness to ourselves, taking ownership for that, all of a sudden things start to change and shift because you want more. You're like, Well, I don't want to be like that anymore, I don't want to live like that anymore. That's not the construct that works for me anymore. And then all of a sudden, it's like radical ownership, and the integration starts to happen, and then doors start to open everywhere. Opportunities, conversations, relationships, career opportunities, having babies, meeting new people, like finding new levels of your own personal development, all of these things. So I would say the answer to that is yes, it's not uncomfortable because you're breaking through glass ceilings and you're pushing through terror barriers. Because we did touch on fear-based choices before. What keeps us in holding spaces is fear-based choices, perceived fear as well, not real fear, because there's two different there's unrealistic fear and then there's fear. Real fear is holy crap, I need to run. That tiger is gonna eat me. Yeah, that's real fear. Yeah. Or I'm gonna crash into that wall because you're going to. There are real fear scenarios that our body is wired for from a lot, you know, our ancient ancestors to for survival. That's what your fight or flight system is about. That's where you get those stress hormones and that adrenaline dumping into your body to get you into a safe space. You're not meant to be in there for long periods of time. It's detrimental to the body, it puts it in a space of dis-ease. Then, unrealistic fear is a perception of fear with the predictive brain. It's experiences from the past connected to the lived experience of the now, and your brain predicting what's possible and what can happen because that's what it does on a second-by-second basis. It's always predicting. So, unrealistic fear is also the same as what anxiety is. It's not real, it's not happening now. You're constructing it in your brain. So when you go, I'm gonna do this, oh, but what if, oh, but what if, that's what keeps you in a holding space. When you learn to challenge that narrative with tools and strategies and ways forward and different agreements that you're making in your brain, your beliefs, then the whole world opens to you. Everything can change. You have full ownership or own your shit mindset going on where you own it and you know that any step sideways or perceived stop or stepping backwards is a powerful place to pivot from, and you get choice. That's my answer to that. What would your answer be, Belle?

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Gosh, I don't know, I can elaborate beyond that. Um you put it so beautifully. Um, I think it this is part of us coming to know ourselves. I think that that's um if you have that seed in you of like I am more than what my life presently is, and you want to push that, own that, um, bring that woman into the world, then you're gonna start to ask those questions and you're gonna create the shift. We are creators that we we birth life. Why can we not birth new things for ourselves? New versions of ourselves. And and is that selfish? No, ultimately, I think it's the power, isn't it? We come to love who we are, therefore that enriches who we are, and we stand and hold space for other women as they step through these thresholds as well. Because we're bringing better versions of ourselves, you know. To have taken that few minutes in the shower and gone and laid on the bed with your talent air-dried, in that moment, you were giving to yourself, and you're gonna be you're gonna come up from that and be a better mum in that moment. Of course, because of the nurturing that you gave to yourself, and it's those little things, right through to big moments that we take. It's not to say there won't be a moment where the outcome may not be what we expected, and sometimes it's some and not about the pushing for it and the forcing of it, but the allowing, and it does take the looking process, and there's so much behind all of that, but how can we not come out richer for it? And those around us will benefit greatly from that. Look at how we've benefited where this has already happened. Um it actually becomes the flip of what selfish is. We're being quite selfless for the greater good of by being better the best version, turning up as the best version of ourselves. How can that not be for the better of community?

SPEAKER_00 55:14

And look, the whole idea of what why it's not uncomfortable, it's growth.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Like I've seen and there's growing pain, you know. And not dumping woohoo! Yeah, at least for the living that the choice to be selfish, the choice to grow, and like a kind of want to move, yeah, be selfish. Yeah. Actually, have had, you know, on the odd occasions, people say to me, be selfish. And again, it's that relationship with that word. And so I I think I've found a really comfortable place of it being a very positive thing, somewhat, as opposed to demonized, and and shopping used like that. Yeah. So I think we find better words to use, but step into that growth, keep showing up, become the better version. Yeah, challenge and question where keeping yourself in a box or confined like a sardine in a tin is not gonna work for you anymore.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Um forge a new relationship with the word, yeah, or ditch the word altogether. Yeah, if it still um ignites or activates feelings of negativity, don't use it. Use self-focused, uh, use growth, use whatever works for you and reframe it.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

And you're going to find the tools to manage the discomfort of it as well. If you found the tools to start understanding who you are, you will find the tools to manage the discomfort, you know. Um there was great discomfort in choices I made as you did. But we can still give in a really healing way to that space.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

I was recently asked about that choice I made when I was young. Do you regret it? And I said, no. No, I do not. No, I do not. And that wasn't really well received. But I did explain why I didn't. And um, and I kept saying, but that choice wasn't about you, it was about me, it was about what I needed to do for me. And if we don't take the responsibility on to make choices for ourselves, we become victims. We just sit in the victim space all the time. I can't, you know, things happen to me. Da-da-da-da-da. It's like, no, no, you don't have to be there, you don't have to be a victim. The minute you understand your power to make choice is the minute you everything shifts for you. So I think the choice of saying, it's okay to be selfish or self-focused or self-led. It's okay for me to prioritize my growth, my well-being, my self-care. Yeah? It's okay. The minute you forge that relationship, everything changes.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

And it's good to ask yourself what's the impact of my choice. Always. But funnily enough, answering that question for yourself can still be based on fear, oh, they won't love me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

And you don't know And that may be what comes out, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:27

And it may be, but how are you going to navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Then I'd say, how can you qualify that?

SPEAKER_01 58:31

You can't. And how about you put it this way, but what if they love the new version of you more? Yeah. You don't know any of that. It becomes the question of if I don't happens to me exactly. Um, and sometimes that is a worse outcome.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

And especially like you know that what if they don't love me anymore? Then did you really need them in your life if they don't have the capacity to love you authentically? Yeah, authentically unconditionally, no matter what you're doing. Like, do you really need that?

SPEAKER_00 59:07

And these are all the questions allow yourself to this is the reflective process that we're that I was talking about, learning that this is a a way of being, and everyday, always, all the time. Not to send yourself burko, but to look at that space and go, oh, okay. What are my thoughts and feelings about that? How's that turning up for me? So on and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

So for the woman listening to this conversation, who feels that sense of there has to be more than this, and conversely, who also feels the guilt or resistance around it, what would you want her to understand about that tension? And what does it look like to actually honour that desire rather than shut it down? And if she's at a point where she knows she wants more but doesn't know how to access it, what's her next step?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Okay, so let's break that up.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

So first of all, uh what are we understanding about the tension? What are we understanding about the tension? It's normal. Yes, it's real, it's actually so healthy because you're at you're at a an invitational point. You're in a place where there's possibility seeding and a shedding of something old. So the tension is healthy. It's it's an invitation.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

You're affecting change, and yes, there's that ripple out into others. So it's gonna it's going to exist, it's going to be real. Yeah. I think you have to but I have to I think you have to see it as part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

I think it's like a marker or a beacon that says, This is where you're at, and this is normal, and this is healthy because you're on the precipice of change. It's what you do with the action that it takes you to the next place. So is that your next question? What's the next question? What does it look like to honour that desire rather than shut it down? A mix of things. It looks like optimism and curiosity, fear, possibly, because it's like you're crossing a threshold, you're walking across a bridge. It looks like opportunity change. It looks like maybe quite foggy because you're not quite sure what's on the other side. You just know you need to keep walking, you need to keep moving through this, and you don't need to have all the answers right here. You just need the next step, and then that you'll get the next step after that. So it looks like when you honor it, it looks like you're honouring trusting yourself, and trusting the fact that you will intuitively gather the resources that you need and find the answers that you need as you transition that space.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

And then so when she's at the point where she knows she wants more but doesn't know how to access it, what's her next step?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Oh, I'm gonna get you all the way in on this one. Yeah, for me, my next step, and maybe this will resonate with some and not others, because we're all different, is to sit with myself and go, what is it that I need and how do I feel? And then that helps me go, okay, uh, that's an option. This is an option, which one resonates the most, and just take that next step. Um, I'm always going to tell you that a guide helps because I believe they do. That's a belief that I have. I've got my own guides and I guide others, so I always feel like, and you know, guides can turn up in all shapes and forms, they don't necessarily have to be a coach or a counsellor or something like that. They can be a really good friend that's gone through something that you've gone, and you just model a little bit off them, and then you're through the next space, or it could be a mentor from work, or it could be any, you could find it anywhere, but I always feel like as long as they're a person that's there for your highest purpose, and they're not swaying your decisions based off what they want, which is why an unbiased person is much better to you know get that grounding off. For me personally, and for any woman out there, it's just slow down, stop, take a breath, and ask yourself, how do I feel and what do I need?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

I think um like touching on like she doesn't know how to access it. My my thoughts are um start the conversation, whether it because like we like you know, this could be they're they're taking the next step for absolutely anything. Um so like the conversation could easily just be started by doing a Google search of, you know, I don't know, whatever you Yeah, yeah, whatever you want to do. It is a conversation, yeah, like a Google search and then and then as simple as yeah, having a chat with friends. And it's just I feel like as soon as you can voice it into the world, that's when it starts to become easier for the next steps to come because you've put it out there. If you're just sitting at home thinking to yourself, I want to do more, I want to I want to become a prima ballerina, but you're not telling anybody, you're not make like taking any action towards it, or you're just gonna sit there wanting to be a prima ballerina. Um but yeah, starting the conversation that brings the next steps.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:04

Well, I suppose that's taking it from intention to action. Yeah. What about you, Belle?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

Yeah, I think about the what the girl at 18 did to you know, we're all gonna do a little bit different at different stages based on what we know and understand. I think the greatest gift any person, any person, man or woman gives to themselves is self-trust. Um it was a really interesting thing as my children have walked into the world making choices. Um, and my youngest took off overseas, and I felt the greatest gift I could give to her was to say, I trust you and I want you to trust yourself. Trust yourself. Um we're not you know, I think that's an old patriarchal way of not not trusting yourself, not actually learning to mm go into that intuitive space within us. We're taught to just follow the rules or to, you know. Follow this line, this path. So I think at that very point, see the gift of trusting yourself. Which is soul deep, right? So very, and then to sit sit with that, but then everything that you women have said, um, start the conversation, start the research. Uncover for yourself what that feeling is, and and in that journey of uncovering it, you may actually recognise that oh, I actually want to go left here, not right. You know, this actually means this to me. Um, and at this point in time in my life, this is what I'm going to do with that. You know, at another stage of life, you will grow at um you know, see if the roadmap falls out in front of you, and if it doesn't, just take the first step. And I think conversation, absolutely mentoring, and and it will look differently relevant to I guess whatever that is, and at what stage in life. But heck, you know, in our teens we just went, I'm doing this. I can't say I had any of that sitting there, but it was unknowing. So that that gift you give to yourself of self-belief and self-trust, when self-doubt is something I think we all struggle with at various times, that can be the greatest starting point. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

So, before we close out, I'd like Jo's nugget. It's juicy always. So for the woman listening who has spent a long time questioning whether she's allowed to want more, what might change for her if she stopped making it wrong?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

Everything is the answer to that question. And my nugget is trust the nudge. Trust the nudge. Like I worked with the body for 25 years, so I worked in rehabilitation of injury, as well as I worked with dancers, I was a dancer myself, I worked in um neural integration, and then I've moved on to where I am now. And every time you get a nudge from your body, a niggle, it means something. It's a subtle cue point to do something about it. And when it comes to our you know, making a next step in our pathway, or like you said before, um, questioning, if you're questioning, that's a niggle, that's a nudge. Follow it and keep following it until you feel satisfied that you've followed it through to its conclusion. So in the body, it's like it doesn't exist anymore because the niggle's telling you something's not right, there's a pathway issue, there's a um some type of way of your body functioning or being that's not quite right. So, in in the energetic sort of life uh progress space, follow the niggle because it is your intuition saying, like a kid pulling at a shirt, hey, hey, hey, it's there, and sometimes it's super quiet, like it doesn't always roll. Sometimes it does, it's like you need to do this now. That's a roar, and you're like, what the heck? Where did that come from? Trust it implicitly because it's your higher self calling to you, it's calling you to the next space, and then sometimes it's quiet, like in a space where maybe you're hearing, hmm, I don't know if this is the right path for me at the moment. This isn't working, this isn't feeling like something's off.

unknown 1:09:45

True.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

Explore it, trust it. What is it? Question it, follow the thread, because I guarantee you it leads you to better spaces and spaces of your choosing eventually. Yeah. What about your nugget, Del? Yeah, do you have a nugget? Do you have a nugget?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Oh, no, I'll go with that nugget. You can't steal someone else's nugget. Yeah. Just stay stay curious about that that little um honour yourself from the small acts of giving to yourself to the larger choices you'll make in life. Um, this is all to me, is that not the purpose of our human experience? Um, yeah and use that, of course, you know, to become the best version. And isn't it beautiful to meet people that are being the best version of themselves? Oh. Why would we not want to be that?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Oh, it's in it it is infecting, isn't it? When you meet someone and they're just and it's people that you're like, I want some of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:45

And they remain curious, yeah. They remain just open.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

Yeah, definitely. What about you, Caitlin? Do you have a nugget? No, I'm not at nugget level. Oh, 10 seconds. Sure, you've got nuggets.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:01

Well, I do, I I very much agree with uh um like you'll feel it. I yeah, I follow my gut all the time. I I will often acknowledge the gut and then ignore it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:15

Ignore it. Says she all the time. Many of us all the time. Yeah. And that transfers as as oh, I felt like I should do this, but I thought I I thought I should do that, but I knew I should do that. But you do you go with the I thought rather than I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

And therein lies the answer to that question of what is the cost.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:39

Yeah. Um, okay, and then I guess if I will um add something different, um just the don't doubt yourself. If that's how you feel, go with it. Don't don't think too hard. Yeah. Don't be Caitlin and think too hard. Don't do it. Yeah. Trust. Yeah, trust. We're all talking about trust all yeah. Yeah. Trust your gut, trust, whatever. Don't think too hard. Thank you both so much for another very deep conversation. Deep dive. We went a little bit um off track, but on track. Yeah. In a weird way. Yeah. So if something in this conversation resonated or you would like to inquire about working with Joe, check out the links in the show notes for Angie Rose. This offering is travelling all around Australia at the moment and might be a great place to start. And for those wanting something more personalized, Jo also works with women inside her embodied women one-on-one container.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

Um, face-to-face or yeah, so online or face-to-face. Yeah. Whatever suits. Yeah, and if you're looking for something even more ex um oh deep diving, I suppose we could call it, you can join us at her circle.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

This year. We've been running it every second year, so it's a week-long immersion into women's mysteries. Amazing food provided by Belle. Um and the um the ancient craft of women's weaving with natural fibers, and lovely Gillian is part of that. And Nat will be there too. So Nat co-facilitates. So we've got four beautiful space holders there, and it's a fully inclusive package, that one. So you don't our vision has always been we want women to feel so relaxed and so looked after and cared for that they just are so deeply nourished by everything that they experience that they walk away feeling maybe 10 years younger and a hell of a lot more insightful. Yeah, yeah. So that's also there. Pop those in the show notes as well. Can you really afford to miss out on that? Probably not. And we the other thing about that is we cap it. We don't have any more than 20 ladies on that. And sometimes we won't even have 20 if we feel like there's enough of us personality-wise, there. We just go with we we know when the container is full and we just go, that's enough. So yeah, amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Thank you, everyone, who's been listening to our episode today and being part of these conversations, and thank you both, Joe and Belle, for your wisdom and insight.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

Thank you, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:36

Well, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:38

Um, thanks for joining us, Belle.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

It was great having you all in the combo. Yeah, loving it. Thank you for the invite.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

You're welcome. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Every Woman and Her Dog, and I'll be catching you and we'll be catching you next conversation. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye. Firstly, a deep thank you to our guests today for their honesty, wisdom, and the courage to have those real conversations. If something's landed for you today, don't brush it off. That pull you feel, it's your next edge calling. If you'd like to explore working with me, hit me up on my socials or on my website at joannlee.com.au. Until next time, keep showing up for yourself because you're worth it with love.