Self Love, why it's confronting

Self Love — Why It’s Confronting

Self love gets spoken about constantly… but what happens when it doesn’t actually land?

In this episode of Every Womyn & Her Dog, we unpack what self love really is — beyond the surface-level rituals, affirmations, and quick fixes.

Because on paper, it’s about being kinder to yourself.
But in reality… it often asks you to face parts of yourself you’ve been avoiding.

In This Episode, We Explore:

• What self love actually is — and why it often feels vague or out of reach
• The difference between performing self love and living it
• The patterns, beliefs, and experiences sitting underneath self-disconnection
• What shifts when self love genuinely starts to land
• How decisions, boundaries, and identity begin to change
• Why self love isn’t something you think your way into — but move through
• The role of environments and spaces in supporting deeper self-connection

Key Takeaways

• Self love isn’t surface-level — it requires honesty and self-responsibility
• You can’t mindset your way into self love — it’s something you experience and embody
• Feeling disconnected doesn’t mean you’re failing — it means there’s something deeper to explore
• The discomfort is often part of the process — not a sign you’re doing it wrong
• Real self love changes how you live, not just how you think

Featured Speakers

Joanne Lea — Coach, Therapist & Change Maker
Katelyn Dwyer-Taylor — Taylor Made Digital Support
Erin Wallace — Educator & participant of Embodied Womyn, sharing her lived experience of self-discovery and deep self-connection

If This Resonated

If you felt something shift while listening —  that quiet discomfort, that awareness, that pull…

You’re not alone.

Self love isn’t always soft.
Sometimes it’s the moment you realise there’s more truth waiting for you.

Want to chat to Jo about next steps? 

Book a free clarity call to start the conversation.

Relevant Links & Resources

Mama Gena (Regina Thomashauer): Pussy - A Reclamation

And She Rose – 2 Day Immersive Experience designed as an entry point for women to reconnect with who they truly are, clarify what they want, and begin creating a life that feels aligned. 

And She Thrives – 8 Month Immersive journey for women who are ready to deepen their self-l

Original Soundtrack composed and produced by Flava Productions.

Follow here: https://www.instagram.com/flavaproductions/

Follow Katelyn – Taylor Made Digital Support
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/taylormadedigitalsupport

Follow Joanne Lea
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joanneleacoach

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joanneleacoach/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@joanneleacoach

Substack: https://joanneleacoach.substack.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Hello everyone and welcome to Every Woman and Her Dog, a podcast where we talk about the things women whisper about in kitchens, voice note to their friends, and think about at 2 a.m. I'm your host, Joanne Lee, coach, therapist, and change maker. Each episode we explore the realities of womanhood and cover topics ranging from identity shifts, feminine cycles, to self-leadership, relationships, burnout, and ambition. Bringing to the surface the quiet reinventions happening behind closed doors for women. This is the being and becoming of personal agency. Let's get into it. Welcome, welcome to today's episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. Today's conversation is a big one, ladies. We're unpacking something that gets spoken about consistently, but is often misunderstood personally and also in the general population. Today we're talking about self-love, but not in the way you usually hear or talk about it. We're not talking about the surface-level rituals or quick fixes that we do. We're talking about what self-love actually is, what it asks of all of us, and why so many women feel like they're doing it but not actually experiencing it. Because the truth is that a lot of women that I work with, especially, but just in general, in my own circles, say that they struggle with self-love and they don't always understand what's really sitting underneath that. So today we're gonna unpack that, we're gonna pull it apart. Hopefully, we'll share some good nuggets and some insight for the women out there that are listening and looking that this might be a real topic of um interest for them, but also maybe we're gonna open something up for them today. Before we dive in, I want to introduce who's in our conversation today. I'm joined, as always, by Caitlin Dwyer Taylor from Taylor May Digital Support, Mum of Two Girls and the woman behind the scenes helping me bring so much of my work to life. Welcome, Caitlin. Hello. I'm also joined today by Erin Wallace. Now, Erin, she's an interesting woman. She's got lots going on here. She's a teacher of students with diverse learning needs who feels like that they teach her far more than uh she ever teaches them. She lives for exploration and adventure, and she feels at her calmest when she's in nature or in water. And as a side note, she's also just come out of the six-month container work Embodied Woman with me, and she might share some of those insights today. Welcome, Erin. Good morning, good morning. Okay, so without further ado, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I think what makes this conversation important is that self-love is one of those things everyone talks about. But I don't know if people actually understand what it means in a real lived way. People can say they're working on it but still feel disconnected, critical of themselves, or like something's missing. Was that a signal then? I'm just putting my hand up like we do every of us. I feel like these are very personal topics.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

So today I really want to unpack that with both of you. What self-love actually is, what it isn't, and why it can feel so hard to access even when you're trying. Self-love is one of those terms that sounds good but can feel a bit vague. What is it really? If a woman was genuinely experiencing self-love, what would that actually look or feel like for her day-to-day? And on the flip side, what do you see women confusing as self-love that actually isn't? Joe.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Okay. Well, I've got lots to say about this topic because I too have been through the personal self-love journey. But what I'm gonna do is actually hand it over to Erin first thing today because Erin has that this journey for her is really fresh, right? Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna hand it over to Erin, and maybe she can give us insight from her perspective, especially from the point that you're always giving out, Erin. You're always teaching. Um we we do that as mothers as well, as sisters, as you know, where wherever we hold space, we do that. So clearly, self-love is a really important thing because how do we give from an empty chalice? Yeah. Yeah. But for I know, I know personally for Erin, and I do have her permission, so I I want to just make make that known that she's happy to discuss this today. What is the what are the answers to those questions for you, Erin?

SPEAKER_04 5:22

If you'd have asked me six months ago what I thought self-love was, um I would have had such different responses today. Wouldn't it be? Um my answer would have been, you know, uh I like myself, I I look after other people, I I show my self-love by helping other people, um, which isn't what self-love is. You don't feel like that. I don't feel like that. Um I've always struggled with this concept of self-love. I think people who have always been able to genuinely love themselves, I have so much respect for. Um, and when I started on Embodied Women, um, that was my goal was to learn to love myself, which sounds cliches. Yeah, like you know, it's something you everyone should love themselves. Um, but it was something that I had struggled with for so long. Um and trying to find out why, why I didn't feel that self-love. Um, I think I thought, oh, I like myself, I like myself, but there was no real self-love. Um, and I have done a lot of work over the last six months to realise that to for self-love to be evident, you have to honour yourself above everybody else. Um you have to place yourself as your priority. As you said, you can't feel from an empty cup, you can't give the love that you feel like other people deserve if you're not giving that to yourself at the same time. Um so for me, self-love has always been kind of like something that I've wanted, but I never really knew I didn't have it, or I didn't know I was missing it, and I didn't know how to get it. Um and if it wasn't for working with with Joe and Embodied Women, I probably would still be where I was six months ago, pouring from that empty cup, having no boundaries, having no pure self-respect, I would I would say that's an interesting way to put it.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Yeah, when you say pure self-respect, what is that opposed to what you had before?

SPEAKER_04 7:54

I would say I am a very different person. I um would I place myself as a priority, health-wise, um time-wise, um, I advocate for myself more. I know what I need, I know what I want to be healthy, to be happy, to be fulfilled. Um, and I just make sure that that is my priority before I can help anyone else, before I can do what I need to do in my life, my I have to take care of myself. I have to be that person. Um and I think for a really long time, you for my age group, I see on Instagram all these people who are out there, you know, self-love and all of that, and I was like, oh, go you. Um and but I was I could never have had the confidence to be able to put myself first or put myself out there like this wholeheartedly out of my comfort zone. Um, and I'm learning that no, you know, I can do this and I am worthy and I am deserving of what I put out, I should be giving to myself as well.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

So, Caitlin, hearing that, you before you know you put your hand up and you're like, Yeah, that's me. What what are your thoughts and feelings as we dive into this concept today? Very emotional today. That's okay, that's what we're here for. We're in the space holding space. And look, I would say, was it emotional for you too, Erin?

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Oh, there's been tears, there's been tears of sadness, tears of joy, um, tears of relief in the whole journey. And I think it started off with tears of sadness because I really didn't like myself, let alone love myself. Um, and now it's got to tears of joy because I am who I am and I deserve my own love and I deserve love of others, and um so it is an emotional roller coaster. I think this concept and this this idea and this learning to self-love is such an emotional ride to get there.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

So and I I would say also, like from a cyclical perspective, that ride changes over every month, right? Yeah, you know, we're we're we're cyclical beings, and so we're either menstruating still or cycling, or we're not, and we're following the moon, of which has a an effect on us anyway. So it is yeah, it is a a spiral, it's always spiraling, and you know, from the top of the spiral, looking down, you can see other things, and like hindsight's amazing. Uh, I know Erin would attest to that right now. I think we all can attest to hindsight, it is amazing, and you don't know what you don't know. I've said that so many times before. So coming back around to you, Caitlin. What do you what are your buy-in parts on this? Whether you sort of stand, or what are the things that might be a little bit not feeling that day to day? So the question was what do you actually look for or feel like that from day to day? I feel like Erin has described what that looks like for her. Uh what do you what are your buy-in, buy-ins on this on this part?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Um, it's a huge uh like learning curve for me at the moment. And I think um it like it uh because I keep going back to like my girls because I've done so much learning through having my girls. But then also take the girls away. I think when I was teaching dance, um a lot of my like inner thoughts and stuff came from kind of thinking, I don't want them to feel like that, like how I feel, so what can I do to, you know, let them know that they can love themselves. And then I was like, I need to love myself first. Um so like a big a big thing with my my eldest, because she's a bit more curious, um, is obviously body image. And so sometimes it just it'll take me forever to get dressed because something's not fitting right or it doesn't feel right. And I'm very careful not to voice that so that she doesn't carry it on. And it was only recently when she poked me in the belly and she goes, Mummy, why is your belly so big? And initially, like that hurt. I was like, ow. Cut me deep, Shrek, it's because of you. Um yeah, initially that really jabbed at me, and then I was like, No, hang on, I don't want I don't want her to learn these bad negative habits. So I was like, No, well it's because mummy grew you in my belly and it had to stretch and stretch and stretch so that you could fit inside, and it's just taking a little bit longer to go back, and it's in those moments of teaching her that I'm also teaching myself, because I go, well, if I'm telling her these things, I need to live by it. So I I've been able through the girls to start being more accepting of myself because I want them to be accepting of themselves. So, yeah, so that's just kind of like the day-to-day things of I guess the scripting. I I want to make sure that I'm not passing on anything. I'm still so very far away from loving myself. I'm like I kind of like myself a little smidge, but what do you think is like holding you back? I don't know, I think I just hold on to I hold on to absolutely everything that's happened in the past. I think I'll I'll remember, you know, that nasty thing I said and I'll hold on to that. And I think part of me feels like I have to suffer first or something, and feel that guilt before I can move on. So I'll just be like you're a horrible person.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Right. So lots of self-judgment.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yes, lots of it.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

I think well from from my experience personally, I I I was there, I remember what I was like many, many, many years ago. And in my understanding, the judgment comes from not understanding yourself, for not having from not having the tools, the strategies, and the capacity to hold space for yourself and actually reflect and inquire. Why do I feel that way? What do I need? What is actually going on for myself? So um, and doing that process versus the judgment is what I would describe the day-to-day looks like for someone who's sitting in a space of self-love, and then there's other elements like self-appreciation, self-acceptance, that's a big sort of these things are all tied up in self-love. I know that we kind of use the word self-love, but there's a lot of components to self-love, and um on the flip side, the question here is what do you see women confusing as self-love that actually isn't? I think that women confuse self-care with self-love, and self-care is an important component of self-love, but it's not the only component of self-love. Because it's no good if you're doing like a skincare ritual and then you're internally talking about how you don't like yourself.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Yeah. So it's not just skin deep, and it's good to do that ritual or that practice. I don't know. What do you think about that, Erin?

SPEAKER_04 15:53

I um was set a task by Joe. I was wondering if this was gonna come up, which horrified me, absolutely horrified me. Um, which involved me looking at myself in the mirror and telling myself I loved myself, and it was horrible. And it was an amazing experience by the end, don't get me wrong, but at the beginning I had had to stand with my eyes closed in the mirror and tell myself I loved myself because I haven't liked what I've seen in the mirror. Um, and you it wasn't even that I I don't know if I felt I didn't deserve my own love or I didn't deserve love from other people, and I think that's part and parcel of it. Um, but that having to really look into my own eyes and into my own soul, um, and tell myself that I loved myself wholeheartedly. Everything that was looking back at me, I loved, was probably the hardest experience I have ever had to go through. Um, and every session I had with Jo, she'd be like, How are you going? And I'm like, Oh, I've got one eye open now, and I can do it with one eye open, and oh, I can say it really quickly and then move my head away. Um, and now I've got to the point where I can stand in front of a mirror regardless of what I have, whether my hair's up, down, makeup, no makeup, whatever it might be, and I can just look into my eyes and say, I love you. I love you. And that was a very hard place to get to. Um, but it's genuinely something if I'm not feeling great, I'll just look at myself in the mirror and be like, no, I love you. Go, go, go get it, go do it. Um, and it was very daunting.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

I love when you say that. Go get it, go do it. Because in my mind I've got this cheerleading. Yes, yeah. Ready, okay. And like for those listening right now, I really want to sort of dive into that process a little bit for a second. Because you can stand in front of a mirror and go, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. Like, that is not a soul-felt experience. When we're working in this space of reflective work in the mirror, there's a whole new level of learning how to gauge what love feels like for yourself. Because we're not just, and a lot of people will muck around, they're like, I'm in the back. Hey chicken babe, I'm seeing you underview. Now, when you come to that after you've actually achieved this, I don't know, what would you call it? Like spiraling to that, yeah. Um, once you then you can go to that, like, uh fuck you, I love you, you know, then there's that real playfulness. But the playfulness that you're using beforehand is actually resistance, yeah, and um it's stopping you from dropping deep. And so there's a place which I'd like I'd love to hear, Erin's. I have to describe to someone what you're searching for when you find the place of actual self-love where you can be in a in that position to look at yourself in the mirror and truly feel with every fibre of your being what you're saying is real and it lands. So, my job is to describe what you're looking for in that space so that once you get there, you know you've got there, and that can be challenging to describe I don't know. Was it well described, Erin?

SPEAKER_04 19:54

It it was once I it it clicked, okay. Up until you know, I I was saying it and I like I said I had my one eye open and then I had both eyes, and then I was jumping in and out of the mirror, and um, but once I did it, just it was like huh. Like it was just this sense of calm, this sense of acceptance, this sense of you're enough. Um and it the description worked well because once I got to that point, you could you could feel it was it was a feeling, yeah. And I think that feeling is gonna be different for everybody, yeah. Um but once I I said it and I knew I meant it, it was just my body just felt yeah, alive, yeah, um, like sparkly, like I just felt it. Um it's a full body sensation.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Very much so, very much so. It's not just an intellectual thing, like I love you intellectually. It's a full body felt sense. It's it's all of the it's all of your bodies. It's your emotional body, your physical body, your spiritual body, your mental body. All of it in alignment. So that's when you get that like Baroquez, yeah. Yeah, yes, very much so.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Very cool, very cool indeed. Touching on that for a second though, I remember it was I don't I think it was maybe a few months ago. I I didn't tell myself I loved myself, but I did look in the mirror because I think I was just um getting ready or something. Um I remember looking in the mirror looking so like tired and sad and I just I just smiled at myself and I was like, oh that's better. It's like I had to see myself smile.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

To be like, it's okay. Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah, and these are all little steps towards learning to accept and love yourself for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah. Why do you think so many women feel the struggle with self love, like myself?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Well I think to be fair men and women feel it, but we feel it in different ways. For women, because we sit in many care and roles, it's part of our feminine nature. Um and also because we're in places of surface a lot, there there's some prescribed narratives that have been indoctrinated in us that we need to come last, and coming last means there's nothing left for us. So I feel like there's this tug of war between what's socially considered acceptable and expected, to what is actually real and how you do that. So I feel as though for us as women we've been indoctrinated with that sacrificial way of living where we have to sacrifice ourselves and then we and then we impress that continuously by saying there's not enough time, I've got to put everybody else first, it's alright, I can go to the back of the line. And look, the reality is that when we're in different roles, we are doing that, but I truly wholeheartedly believe that both of those things can share centre stage. There's a way in which you can do it, that it might look like you're putting everything else first, but in actual fact you're not. You are sitting in a much more empowered space because you've prioritised both your what you need and how you turn up for yourself alongside with how you turn up for others and how you put yourself out in the world. And I also feel like, well, I'm gonna ask this question of all of us. Who taught you what self-love is? Do you know what it is? Has anyone ever explained it to you? Do you remember having conversations with your mother or your father or siblings or anybody or like girlfriends? When's the last time you had a self-love conversation at the time? So ladies, hey, who's loving themselves so good at the moment? You know, what's a self-love cup look like? Like, are we even discussing this in a way that feels like, oh, so, oh my god, I smashed out four loads of washing the other day? Or or are we talking about it like uh like we talk about our cycles, like we talk about other are we is it just as important? There's probably two topics, I feel, that should be at the top of our list as women that we don't talk about. One is finances and one is self-love. We don't talk about either of them. W we we've been systematically um continuously modelled that those things we don't really talk about. I don't know, tell have you had those discussions, Caitlin, with anyone? Oh, besides my best friend. Uh-huh. Yeah. But from like a parenting perspective, are you talking to your children about it yet? And were you ever talked to about it?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

I mean with the girls, I I'm already telling them we we don't have endless money. Um, that's as far as I talk to them about finances, but But you're not talking about their capacity to build wealth, but they're very young.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Well, no, I didn't kind of yeah. I taught Elliot she got some money for her birthday. So I said, you can you there was two notes, one was a twenty, one was a five, and I said, pick one, you get to spend that. She has no idea how much they are. Of course, yeah. I mean pick one, you get to buy a toy, and the other one goes in your piggy bank.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

So we we teach her that. And um, if she wants to go and get a baby chino, she's gotta bring her own money. Um and then I don't know about self-love, because yeah, they're in the little, I guess, well, I don't know, but like we do, like you you are so clever, you are brave, like you are beautiful, you are kind. Um so we do talk to her a lot about those kinds of things. Um and she has acknowledged before she was like, I was brave and ah, I was a good friend. And then on the other side she can she can say, I was really naughty. Yeah, and like I think I just try and be pretty like transparent with her about feelings. She can naturally be like me, where she can be quite hard on herself when she has feelings, like she feels like that's a bad thing, and so I'm trying to teach her. No, it is okay. It is okay if you're scared and like this is what we can do, and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Erin? Um, in terms of self-love, and I'm probably finances as well. I know with my closest friends, my best friends, we will have conversations and we will talk about um, you know, how we feel, what what's going on, why we're feeling like that. Um, finances. I grew up with a single mum, so I'm very I'm one of those people that is very at times hyper focused on finances. I'm independence. Yeah, I need to know that I can afford to do XYZ and I need to, I still, you know, ring my mum. Oh, I'm thinking of buying this. What what do you think? And she's like, You're 43. If you would like it, go and buy it. Um, and I um for me, financial security is important because that's what I grew up seeing my mum struggle with um and having to work very hard for. Um, and I do have conversations like that with my friends about right, you know, it it's as simple as being honest, going, I can't go for breakfast this week, I just can't afford it. It's my off-pay week. And they're like, yeah, no worries.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Do you think as women we ever I know we're kind of you know moving off the topic a little bit, so we'll circle back in a second, but this question just came up to me then. Do you think we ever talk about because this intersects with self-love? Do you think we ever talk about finances and self-love in an abundant mind space conversation? Like with you're highlighting, I I feel comfortable saying I can't do this because I can't afford it. Do we ever talk about, oh my god, I just, you know, made this many dividends from my portfolio and um I got a pay rise? And do we ever talk about wealth building and also personal love building in a space where we're talking about it from because we talk about what we're not doing and what we're not good at and how we're kind of in deficit with something. Are we talking the other way?

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Um, I would honestly say no. Um I don't have dividends to start with. You've got other types of dividend, other dividends. Um, but I would I would say no. That is I don't flip the script and talk in that regard, in that sense. Um probably ever, I wouldn't say. Isn't it interesting? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Isn't it interesting that we don't talk like that? I think um I think I had a similar thought the other day, um, where I actually felt like like I wanted to talk to one of my friends and be like, oh, like you know, like this is really good this is really good for me right now, but I felt like I didn't want to do that because they're in a rough patch and I didn't want to make them feel bad. So I feel like that might be impacting the conversation a little bit that you know we feel like we're bragging if we're like, oh I I I love myself so much.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

I so love that you're saying that. I don't know if any of you well, I know Erin has, but um shout out to Mama Gina and um her book uh Reclamation of Pussy because she talks about the it the need for us as women to brag. And bragging isn't big noty and egoic, it's sharing positivity and goodness. And also I love that you what you just said, Caitlin, because then there what what you're what we're all because I know we've all done it in times, we're basing our choices of assumptions. Assumptions, what how hard is it for us to say maybe your goodness would lift another person rather than putting it down, and this is where I keep coming back to this scarcity mindset. Like we're not talking about our how we love ourselves and how good we feel about being like that. We're not talking about our finances and positive financial movements, we're not talking about how it could be good because we're worried we're going to drag someone down rather than pulling them up. And um, she's got a great little, I don't know if you remember Erin Mitch, she's got a great little exercise there where you when you get together with your girlfriends, the first thing you do each is brag for five minutes. This is so good, I've got this going on, this is happening, this is happening, da da da. And great, like it could be as good as like I pumped out five loads of washing this morning. I feel bad that right. To oh my god, like I started a chair's investment fund, to like uh I had a really good win with the girls this morning. I I felt like I had taught them about self, whatever it is, whatever all these little touch points are, because naturally, for whatever reason and wherever that's come from, naturally we're focused on problem, not solutions. So negative situations, not positive situations. Isn't it really interesting? It's just I'm just like it's almost like a disease.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'll go catch up my with my friend, and I think we just we just bring each other down because it's it's just like oh I've got this shit going on, and then I've got this shit going on. And I'm just trying to remember when we last caught up what actually like what positivity we actually spoke about. I think it was all just negative, like, oh the baby's not sleeping, kids are sick, money's non-existent, and all this stuff. And I just don't I can't think of anything possible that we actually spoke about.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

I wonder if we all just started to initiate it's okay to talk about that stuff, but then we go, we have to level that out with what is good. And then when the good stuff comes out, it's praise, praise, praise, praise. Fucking go you go, girl. Like that is amaz that good on you.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

How do you feel about that? I think I grew up in a time where if you bragged about yourself or you put yourself out there, you were stuck up. You know, and I think I've had conversations at the gym um before about you know, growing up sort of, you know, you hunt kind of sh hunched your shoulders over. You can't you didn't want to, you know, you didn't want to s you know, if you you stuck your boobs out, you were, you know, stuck up or you or whatever. Um and I think changing that mindset is really hard. Um is it? I think so. For me, for me it was hard. Um I think I it was just ingrained for so long that you you didn't um unless you were with your closest friends or your your family, you didn't share your goals or you you didn't share your wins because you didn't want to brag or you didn't want to be put yourself out there. Um so for a very long time I made myself quiet. Small. Quiet and small in a little box because that was safe. Um and I like I said, I grew up where you you just didn't do that, you didn't brag, you didn't put yourself out there, you kept yourself to yourself. Um but in saying that I now have an amazing group of friends where yes, we we I would say that we don't celebrate enough, but we definitely do. They're the first people that I would text if something good happened, or they're also the first people I'd text if something bad happened. Um, you know, and I think that's something that we've learned from society is to as women to really maybe not put ourselves out there and not celebrate with all the bells and the whistles of good things that are happening. So that's definitely something that I've been trying to change on my journey.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

So yeah. So with you, Erin, um when the self-love actually landed, like you have that mirror moment. Yes, yeah. Um, can we talk about like what shifted? Did you have like any boundaries that changed changed? Like what changed in your in your life?

SPEAKER_04 35:20

I thought I had boundaries. So that's all. And then when I realized that I did love myself and I was my priority, I realized my boundaries they were meaningless. They were just things I put in place thinking that they're boundaries. That they're boundaries, but they they actually weren't boundaries. Um and I have now learnt to be more vocal about what I need. Um I've put in real boundaries. Um that has meant, you know, friendships may have come and gone, um, having difficult conversations because that's what needs to be done in order for me to honour myself and how I feel. Um and also not trying to think so much about how the other how it's gonna hurt or impact the other person. I really need to make sure that I'm doing what is best for me. Um and it it was there are moments where um the the doubt creeps back in and you kind of have to go, no, no, I'm doing this for a reason. I've worked hard to get here. I love myself, I honour my boundaries and my choices, and you know, if you people who can't sort of accept that, uh it's hard to have those conversations of well, I don't think this will work, or I don't think this is going to happen because of that. Um and I think the the mirror, the mirror task, um like it it it was daunting, but it was that light bulb moment that I needed where everything I'd worked with with Joe, all the conversations we'd had, all the you know, the the preparation and the healing that I had to do to get there, that when it happened, it was yeah, like that Barocco moment, it was the fizz and the sparkles, and you just almost I could see myself like, oh yeah, straighten up a little bit more and you know put the chest out and be proud of who who I was. Um so for me it was it was just a lovely little moment where I realised that I could not only like myself, I could actually love myself.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

What I love at this moment is we're actually celebrating that with Erin. I bearing witness to her speaking about it. It's like it's us celebrating the women go off. Um I I love that, I love that that's happening. Um I yeah, look, from the outside, it's so amazing to see the shifts and changes in a woman when I see what they're like before they start on their journeys, and then I watch them move through their journeys, and then I see them come out the other side with that Baroque of Fizz that we're talking about. It's profoundly um like I feel privileged to be able to sit in those spaces with women and help them move through that. What I love is the ripple effect, and I wanted to just touch on the boundaries thing for a second.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah, I want to talk more about boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Yeah, cool, awesome. That's good. So I I think a lot of people feel perhaps, and it'd be great for you both to weigh in on this, that boundaries feel like this really aggressive, rigid construct that that sits in place and it's like, hell no, get out, you can't do this, or like it's a real there's almost um conflict tied up in the word boundaries, right? But what and I've seen lots of women move through what boundaries look like for them because they're individualized as they are for me, and um different things impact people in different ways based off lived experiences, who they are as a person, what their core values are, all of those types of things. But what I I loved hearing in Erin's journey is she's just like one of her boundaries is no thank you, no, no thank you, Noah's a full sense. She would say that a lot, you know, in her reflection one too. She's like, no, thank you. Yeah, yeah, someone had asked her something, and she's like, Yeah, no, thank you. And it didn't have to be aggressive, it doesn't have to be this big, rigid, you know, guard like a man, man out in front and guarding a pathway or something. It can just be that simple. It's a no thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, and without having to justify it because I feel like I always have to like give a huge spiel to justify saying no. You don't. And I yeah, I would like to just yeah, nope. I th I've started it. Um and sometimes it's sometimes it's fair enough for somebody to ask why, but it's also fair enough for me to be like, you don't need to know why.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I think I know once you get to a place where you are connected to that place of self-love, those things fall into place a lot easier. They don't feel like they need to be justified, they're not aggressive, they're not, and they they can be um rigid and strong should they need to be, especially if something is being crossed in a really strong way. But for a lot of the time, it just means like, yeah, no thanks. Yeah, no thank you. Whereas, like you said, when you're not sure of yourself, like when you you don't have that sense of inner security or space of safety that you know that you love yourself and that you are enough the way that you are. We're always moving, we're always changing. For women, especially, it's about the identity work, right? We need to identify with ourselves, and what a lot of people don't understand is I mean, we've had a conversation in a podcast about doing the work, right? Doing the work and sitting in these spaces is about identifying with the next version of yourself. Where does she want to be? Who is she? What does she want to do? What is she like? What is she not like? What are her and the this the initial I feel the initial work is to find the core identity of yourself, and then as you move through different levels and stages, because doing the work isn't always about being in a bad spot, or um, like Nat shared with us last time, she wasn't in a place where her life was in turmoil, there was an issue, she just knew there was another level, so there was a a a newer identity to connect with. But when you've done that foundational work of underst of identifying with who you are at your core being, then the next levels are fun, yeah, they're a great place to go. Is that was is that how you would what would you say there?

SPEAKER_04 42:53

I actually found saying no as a complete sentence was easier to set as a boundary than saying thank you for a compliment. Yes, we worked on that too. Yes, we did work a lot on that. Um and I I always felt that if I was given a compliment in the way that you've just said about justifying, so it's like someone might say, Oh, I really like your dress, and I'd be like, Oh, thanks, it was on sale, or oh thanks, it was the only thing that was ironed on my way out the door this morning. And having to go, they've taken their time to compliment you, they obviously mean it. Thank you, is enough. Um, and I actually found that far more difficult than going no thank you. Like that was challenging, but the actually the accepting of a compliment was almost as difficult as the mirror work because that's just out well out of my comfort zone. Um do you know why it was? Uh it it tied. In with my um inability to love myself. Yeah. So why why is that person saying something nice to me? Like why, why, or what do they want? Or it was it was I always felt yeah that it there was a hidden motive. Why are they being nice? You know, I might just walk past them at work and have never had a conversation with them. So why why would they be saying that? What do they want? Where where's this going? Um and knowing now that it's just a genuine comment, it it was had no hidden meaning, it has nothing. It's just a um, I like your dress or good job doing that. There was it it has no need for scepticism, um, and that was a mechanism that I'd put to protect myself. Um but yeah, that was definitely something I found far harder than a no thank you.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Um I think when you're well I know I don't think I know when you're in those spaces where where you do love yourself and you can accept compliments, so many doors open for you. I I was um out to dinner with my in-laws and my husband on Friday night, and this lady just started talking to me, and after the conversation, like we were having a great combo, because I'm very open, right? Not just because of the role I sit in with my work, but because I love who I am. I'm I'm radiating that. I'm in my turn on, I'm in my space where I'm open to people and hearing things. And so I had this jolly little conversation and this woman, and my partner goes, Where do you know her from? I said, I've never met her for a second. I said, This is the first time I've ever met her. He goes, Really? And I'm like, he's like, how can you have a conversation like that? I go, because I'm I'm open for it. And being being at peace and at ease with yourself, that opens doors to so many opportunities and so many spaces you just didn't even know you had closed. Yeah. And that that is where we start to see that leveling up and that evolution because once though you open to yourself, then those doors open to others, and then your possibilities are endless, right? Then all of these things like Erin, would you have ever thought you would be sitting here on a podcast?

SPEAKER_04 46:31

No, never, but I very quickly said yes, didn't I?

SPEAKER_03 46:35

There was no hesitation. I was like, Yeah, sign me up, of course. And just to let everyone know, that conversation happened on Thursday. Thursday, yeah, and we're here on Monday recording. So uh I think if I'd asked that of Erin six months ago, she would have been like there would have been no chance, no chance I would be putting myself out. And other doors have opened to you, haven't they, since this type of stuff? So would you like to share what those doors have been?

SPEAKER_04 47:04

So I've been um I was asked to present at the um type 1 diabetes walk for a cure. So I'm a type 1 diabetic, have been for 26 years. And my beautiful educator had asked me for four or five years, would I come along, come along? And I'm like, oh no, no, sorry, no, I'm not standing in front of people and talking. Um, and this year I just went, yeah, sign me up. So I spoke at the the march, the walk, um, to raise awareness. Um, so that was definitely something way outside my comfort zone, um, and had been something that I had said no for years and years and years, and it wasn't until yeah, the last six months that I was like, no, I can do that. I will put myself out there. So um that was probably the biggest thing I think so far.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

I think too the permission to allow people to move on from your life to not be stuck in spaces, to unpack them, to reflect on them, to understand what they've given you and how that has sat in a really good space, or not in a good space, because maybe it was a bit traumatic having them leave, but also then be able to be have a process to see okay, well, that's okay. Like everything that has a beginning has an end, maybe there will be another time and place, maybe there won't be, but actually being okay with change, yeah. There's lots of people that are not okay with change, and I was one of them for a long time. I was struggled with change, but that was because I struggled with who I was and how I had to love myself, and I was too busy rejecting myself, and and and that's why you know I really like to emphasize that I'm not someone who hasn't been on these journeys, who hasn't had my own, everyone has these experiences. I know as as a woman, I had to find my own resources and prioritize my own growth, even in times of when I was happy and when I was good because I knew there was something more, and for me, having someone help me through that and have have a bit of a guidance or a mentor, or or actually going, no, I'm gonna do that for me. I don't care what anybody else says, I'm going to invest my time, my resources. Don't necessarily know every reason or what it's gonna give me, but it always gives me more than anything that I have any thought about what I think it will help me achieve.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Yeah, so let's touch on how this kind of work is actually experienced. Um self-love isn't something you just think your way into as much as I wish I could do that. It's just think hard. Some of it is it's something you move through. So, how do spaces and environments play a role in that? So, Erin did the Embodied Woman um programme, but then Joe, you've also got and she rose, which is a two-day um immersive experience. Um for women who are feeling that pull to go deeper. What would you want them to know about stepping into any of those kind of spaces?

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Well, I mean, we've talked about well-held spaces before, so that's important. Those notes uh and you can listen to the other episode about what a held space is because I think that's really important on it no matter who you work with. Um I can I'll let Erin like I I've created the Embodied Woman container, so I know what that looks like, but from an experiential space, I'm experiencing it from a different lens to what someone who has been in it has. So I'm gonna hand that answer over to Erin and she can inform the women out there of what that's like.

SPEAKER_04 51:14

So I didn't go to Joe originally with the plan of doing embodied women, I didn't know it existed. I went to Joe um actually with my partner um and it was through just some one-on-one sessions Joe brought it up. I was like, oh, I think you'd um get a lot out of this. And I think I was very not I wouldn't say sceptical, I think I was very worried about what it was going to show about me. Um and but I was also very excited that it was going to give me some answers about me um and tools and strategies. And when I started Embodied Women, I didn't go in going, oh well self-love's my thing, that's what I need to work on. Um it was one of a few things, but it was the the core, I guess, core theme that kept coming up that that was something that I needed to work on. Um and it's not been easy. Like I said, there's been tears, there's been tears of happiness, tears of joy, but I have never in my life probably felt as content, as happy as understanding of who I am as a woman, as a person, um, who I am as an individual, who I can be as a partner or a friend, what I have to offer. Um, and it's made me understand why I have lived the life I have lived for so long, and that it has served me well. It's got me to the ripe old age of 43, 44, um 43, uh in my 40s, um, and it it has it's done its job, but I've now realised that it's time to start with a new matrix and a new understanding and a new perspective. Um, and none of that would have been possible if I hadn't been on the Embodied Women program. Um, and I am forever grateful that I have been able to have that opportunity and that I've been able to work with someone who has the lived experiences. It's not someone, you know, Joe isn't someone who has sat there and gone read learnt from a book. Um, which I often I mean I have at some point, yeah. I kind of put it in con on in context with like if with my diabetes I'll go see a type 1 diabetes, an endocrinologist, yeah, and they've never had it, they've never had to live with it. Yeah, but they've learnt from a book that this is how you have to book smarts, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um so working with someone who has done the work and can provide sort of that that knowledge, that practicality, the but also understand the big feelings and the big emotions and that they're okay, you know. You tell your little kids it's okay to have big emotions, but as adults I think we've been told not to have those big emotions. Um, and there has been lots of big emotions on my journey. Um yeah, all of us. I still have big emotions, right? Yeah, yeah, they're valid, very much so. But I would have to say that I am the most content and the most settled um that I have been probably forever. Um I've got clear perspectives, a clear mindset, um, and I know my worth and I know what I deserve. Um and I've put boundaries in place to make sure that nobody can take that away from me again, and I can't take that away from me again. Um I've been very good at being quiet and putting myself away, being a bit of a deer in a headlight for however many months. Um and I think without this program I would not have learnt about me. Um and I think a lot of us, a lot of women don't learn about who they really are, yeah because they don't have the tools or they don't know how, or yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Um, and for those who don't know, it's a one-on-one, that's a one-on-one container, so we work. Um so she she couldn't escape me if she tried. There was no running away. There were a few wriggly moments. Yes, yes, but every same, I've had a lot of my unwrigging moments, let me tell you. So um, so that that is that is amazing, and part of you know, Erin completing that. I'm like, so what's next? And she's like, Oh yeah, we're going, she's coming on to and she thrives, so that kicks off in July. So then she's gonna move from that one-on-one container into with other women who have done other types of work like that. So we're that'll be amazing for her. I'm excited to see her next progression and her next space. But to answer your question, Caitlin, about and she rose. Well, that is an environment where women hold the mirror up to themselves, where they start to understand and learn about who they are, and they dive deep into the identity work in an intensive, like an immersive experience, so a two-day experience. So we we learn pretty rapidly on the go, but then it's a lot like working through things and downloading stuff, but then it it um you embody those workings afterwards, like it keeps working, so it's really good for for women who want to see rapid change quick and uh are ready to just go, okay, here's the mirror. I I know I don't I'm not quite sure what I'm gonna get out of it, but I know I'm either in the space where that self-love is or you know, I I know there's another level, or I need to explore, or or I I'm in a holding pattern, or because it's it's gonna shift. Uh I would guarantee you cannot do that that work and fully embodied, you cannot do that work and surrender that to that work and come out the same person. You just you can't. You the the the the tools to identify and connect with who you are in a feminine-centered approach, because it's not the same as the way we would work in a generalized uh coaching and therapy space, it is it's it is feminine-centered and it's designed specifically for women because it's about women. So coming into those spaces is again what we said about well-held space and and also fit for purpose. What are you wanting to do here? And also, like, I've had this this conversation with many women about investment for themselves, and it's like, well, you invest in buying clothes because they're an extension of your personality and what you where you want to be and how you want to turn up. So you you do that, and you invest in say health and fitness because you want to care for your body and look after it, same with your you know, your skin routine or whatever, whatever else we're doing, because we're we're good at those things, right? As women, mainly. We might they might look different from each other, but we're still they're still on our radar. So it's like how much money are you investing on drinking? How much money are you invested on, you know, doing or buying things that are one-hit wonders, that are just hitting the spot, that are actually probably almost distracting you from what you need to do to get to a different space. So when you think about that and how much many finances you could blow doing that, and then you look at because we as women we we balk a little bit when we've got to invest on ourselves and we go, oh crit shit, because this means I've got to be all in here. I can't just play around the peripherals and go, oh yeah, I got it, but I'm not really using it. Like if you when you make an investment, you're not just saying I'm gonna put my money here, you're saying I'm investing in myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Yeah, which is interesting because like we quite easily invest in kids and like you know, here's your swimming lessons, you will go because I've paid for it, but then we won't do it for ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

Because it kind of means something, right? It definitely means if I do that and I don't show up fully, I'm wasting my financial resources, but I'm also not backing myself. Yeah. So it's like, oh well, it's easier to stay with the status quo. Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:55

Was that a thing for you too, Erin? I think so. I think it would have been easier to have done no work, but I am also um one of those people who if I pay for something I will be wholeheartedly investing in it because I have paid for it. Exactly. Um and I am also a believer of I I go to the gym, I do PT, I have all of that sort of I've worked on my physical health, but I had never invested in my emotional health or my mental health. Um because I f even though I knew there were things to work on, I wouldn't say I had mental health issues that required your your traditional help, per se. Um so once I had paid and committed, I was committed. I was sucking everything out of that program that I could get because that is the type of person that I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

Yeah. Um so yeah, yeah, I'm I'm geared very much the same. Whether it's a$7, you know, online book investment or whether it's a$7,000 coaching course, I'm invested. Like I'm like, if I am putting my energy to this, if I'm putting my money and my energy to this, then I am going to that means I'm in balls and all. So it's like right, okay, that's that's what I'm doing. So I my and my big thing is I wonder if we were to ask women, how much are you prepared to pay to not do something? Right? Like to not figure yourself out, to to to keep turning up in the same, how much is that gonna cost you?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Yeah, and like because Erin said, um, like it was easy to just not do the work. But then how much easier is your life now that you've done it?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:58

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it it's paid off in dividends.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:02

Um So you do have dividends. I do have dividends.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

Just different dividends. Um and that's the thing, like I I think it although in a one-to-one situation, I think it would be very difficult to have done no work, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

Um there is, yeah, there's no way that you can show off at a different level, but yeah, yeah, because there's different like in that container, there's reflections, there's um, there's processes, there's things that we do, like we work, we don't just dance around the edges. There's there's work, and that that requires the person who's working with me, I'm working with them to actually action many things and I I keep them accountable, but I also don't accept the dog ate my my homework, right? So but uh um so but you could, I mean I would I would I meet people where they are, we look at those things and we go, okay, right, well that's what this looks like, but the the the depth that you choose to dive to and the energy you choose to bring to that space is entirely up to you. And I meet people where they are. So what Erin's saying is she's sucking everything out with this draw. She's sucking everything out with this draw. There's she's licked the bowl, babe. She's like, is there more? Yeah, so yeah, I think that's a really great question, Caitlin, about investing in easy because we think oh it's easy to stay in the starter's quo, but like how much better is your life now that you've made that choice and then you're you're receiving um return, you're getting those dividends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yeah, really good um dive into self-love today.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

How do you feel about self-love now? Has it changed your perspective on it? But you know, where are you in your cycle?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Maybe we're yeah, let's just we'll just blame it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

We're not blaming, but we're we're highlighting like those things can affect the way that we turn up emotionally. So it's okay to feel a little less or a little more emotionally wobbly when we give ourselves permission to just go, oh wow, I didn't realise that that was making me wobbly, that that's a bit of a tender, like I had a an intellectual awareness of that, but actually, in the in the in the felt sense, in the body, in the emotions, that's way more sort of tender or wobbly than I thought it would be, and that's okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Um, I'm gonna ask you for your final nugget. Ooh, okay. After everything we've spoken about, for the woman or the women listening who feels that. Disconnect or the quiet sense of there has to be more than this. What would you want her to understand about self-love? And if she's feeling the pull to explore that more deeply, what would you want her to know about saying yes to that?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

Okay, so what would I want her to understand about self-love? It's completely achievable. And it is our birthright, and that if you invest your energy into that space, you will find what you're looking for. And if she's feeling the pull to explore that more deeply, what would I want her to know about saying yes to that? Like you can't go wrong. You cannot go wrong. When we it's that oxygen mask theory again. When we we want to help other people, we've seen it, we've heard it, we've all sat there and ignored the message every time we get on an aeroplane. Right? We're like, I've heard it a thousand times before. But it's it's such a real thing. You cannot help someone else if you don't put your oxygen mask on first. You will be passed out in the hallway, you will be doing nothing. So self-love feels like a non-negotiable to turn up as the person that you want to be, which ripples out to everybody else. So that's what I would say. Go for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:24

Great, yeah. I my my nugget would be that you as a woman you deserve it. And that it is a beautiful, humbling process, um, but that you should never question whether you are truly deserving of the work, of self-love, of self-appreciation, um, and that it is your right to have that. And I think that's something that I know for a very long time I I neglected that right. Um, that I won't ever again now. So it's music to my ears.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

Thank you so much, both of you, Joe and Erin, for deep diving today. If something in this conversation resonated with you, our lovely listeners, if you felt that pull or that sense of this is deeper than I thought, you're not alone in that. Spaces like Anchie Rose, where women come to explore exactly this, to move beyond the surface of self-love and into something far more honest, embodied, and real. And for those wanting something more personalized, Jo also works with women inside her Embodied Women one-on-one container, which Erin has completed. We'll pop the links in the show notes if you'd like to explore further. But for now, thank you for being here and for being part of these conversations. And thank you, Caitlin and Erin.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Every Woman and Her Dog, and we will definitely be catching you in the next conversation. Firstly, a deep thank you to our guests today for their honesty, wisdom, and the courage to have those real conversations. If something's landed for you today, don't brush it off. That pull you feel it's your next edge calling. If you'd like to explore working with me, hit me up on my socials or on my website at joannlee.com.au. Until next time, keep showing up for yourself because you're worth it. With love. Joe.