Held Space. Why You Open in Some Rooms, And Shut Down in Others

What makes a space transformational… and not just another event?

In this episode of Every Womyn & Her Dog, we take you inside And She Rose (a 2-day immersive experience for women), and unpack what’s actually happening beneath the surface.

Because on paper, it’s conversation, reflection, and guided work.
But in reality… it’s something far deeper.

In This Episode, We Explore:

•  What “holding space” actually means — and how it shows up inside And She Rose
•  What women feel when they enter a well-held space (and why that matters) 
•  The difference between surface-level events and spaces that create real change 
•  What isn’t a well-held space — and how to recognise the difference 
•  What shifts internally for women across the two-day experience 
•  Why women arrive feeling stuck, disconnected, or “off” — and what changes 
•  The role of safety, structure, and facilitation in creating transformation 
•  What And She Rose really is — beyond a workshop or program description 
•  Readiness — how to know if you’re being called into this kind of space 

Key Takeaways

•  A well-held space isn’t accidental — it’s intentionally created 
•  Transformation happens when women feel safe enough to drop in, not perform 
•  The depth of your experience is often connected to your readiness to receive 
•  Not all spaces are designed for real change — discernment matters 
• And She Rose isn’t just something you attend — it’s something you experience

Featured Guests

• Joanne Lea — Coach, Therapist & Change Maker 
• Katelyn Dwyer-Taylor — Taylor Made Digital Support 
• Nat Fel — NLP Coach & Co-Facilitator of And She Rose

If This Resonated

If you felt something shift while listening — that quiet yes, that curiosity, that pull…

You’re not alone.

And She Rose is one of the spaces where women come to explore exactly that.

A space to:

•  reconnect with themselves 
•  unpack what’s been sitting beneath the surface 
•  and step into a deeper sense of identity 

And for those wanting more personalised support, Jo also works with women inside her Embodied Womyn 1:1 container.

Relevant Links & Resources

And She Rose – 2 Day Immersive Experience
https://joannelea.com.au/product/and-she-rose/ 

Embodied Womyn – 1:1 Container
https://joannelea.com.au/wellness/womens-offerings/embodied-womyn

Original Soundtrack composed and produced by Flava Productions.

Follow here: https://www.instagram.com/flavaproductions/

Follow Katelyn – Taylor Made Digital Support
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/taylormadedigitalsupport

Follow Joanne Lea
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joanneleacoach

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joanneleacoach/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@joanneleacoach

Substack: https://joanneleacoach.substack.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hello everyone and welcome to Every Woman and Her Dog, a podcast where we talk about the things women whisper about in kitchens, voice note to their friends, and think about at 2am. I'm your host, Joanne Lee, coach, therapist, and change maker. Each episode we explore the realities of womanhood and cover topics ranging from identity shifts, feminine cycles to self-leadership, relationships, burnout, and ambition. Bringing to the surface the quiet reinventions happening behind closed doors for women. This is the being and becoming of personal agency. Let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. Today's conversation is a really important one. We're unpacking something that gets spoken about a lot but isn't always fully understood. Today we're talking about what it actually means to hold space, what's really happening inside a well-held space, and why it can have such a deep impact. Because from the outside, it can be hard to explain. Many women have experienced spaces that felt powerful or even uncomfortable, but haven't quite had the language to articulate why. So today we're going to join the dots. Before we dive in, I want to take a moment to introduce who's in the conversation today. I'm joined by Caitlin Dwyer Taylor from Telemade Digital Support, a mom of two girls and the woman behind the scenes bringing so much of my work to life. I'm also joined by Nat Fell, who is an NLP coach and co-facilitator of EnChe Rose alongside me, and plays a really integral role in holding that space for women. So let's get on to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I think what makes this conversation important is that held space is something we hear a lot but don't always fully understand. People can often describe how it felt to be in a space like that, but not what actually created it. So today I really want to unpack this with both of you. What it actually means to hold space, what's happening underneath it, and why it can create such a powerful shift for people. I'm going to be honest, held space is one of those terms I hear a lot, but don't know if people actually know what it means, and I myself don't fully understand what it means. So what is it really? If someone walked into a space you were holding, Jo, what would they actually notice or feel? That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Before I answer that, I'm gonna ask you, Caitlin, what do you think held space is, or what do you interpret that to be before we get into it? Just to get a bit of a gauge on what the pulse is for those, like you've said, you don't really know what it is, or like what is your understanding of that?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Um I think from the little I've heard about it, I feel that it's more about like going into a space with other people who can sit there and be with you whilst you go through the motions of what you're learning and going through, um, and people who can allow you to have that time.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I think that's a really great insight, what you've come up with there. And if we think about, say, a classroom, that's a held space for learning, right? We go in, although if we reflect on our teenager, those uh health spaces were a bit uh frantic, but uh for some of us. But nonetheless, they were spaces created with a purpose, yeah, and so though those spaces were spaces for teaching and learning. And when I talk about, well, there's a let's just say in a in a general term of maybe program facilitation or one-on-one work or in that space, when we're talking about well-held spaces, we're talking about places that are created with intention but also backed up by action. So your question was: if someone walked into the space that I was holding, what would they actually notice or feel? And Nat can attest to this later because I am only seeing it from my perspective, but my intention for those spaces is to support and guide as well as contain them in this really safe space where they can go to depth and unpack things that have gone on for themselves without feeling like they've got to hold it all together for other people, or that other people are going to come into that space and intrude upon that. So it's it's really interesting. It for me, it comes back to that that well-held womb space that we're in as as babies, that I can create those spaces for women to relax and to go to depth on whether it's learning, whether it's uncovering a shadow side, whether it's unpacking a trauma, or whether it's developing knowledge and and understanding. So they would feel safe and secure, well held, and also a sense of lightness that they don't have to hold everything together in this space. It's their permission slip to let go a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yeah, helping them drop their guard and open up instead of saying staying inside their head. So, Nat, you've been there. What did it feel like for you to be in that held space with Joe?

SPEAKER_04 5:55

I think it was um what was empowering. I think when I first started ASR, the group that I did it with, uh I think we were the first group, and it was during crazy times. And like some off-on again COVID times. That's it. And um it was an arranged age group of women, and once everyone started to feel comfortable and you knew you were in this space where you felt safe, people started to let their guard down. And the more people started to speak, the more people were sitting there going, I feel the same way. So when you say held space, it's also that really safe environment um to be yourself, and whether also not only that, but people weren't interrupting you, so we made it Joe made it very clear that when people were holding it for a certain person at that time, they got to speak freely, no one overspoke, no one gave them a solution. It was just like let them just be free to articulate what was going on for them.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I feel like a lot of the time I just need someone to listen. I don't want you to tell me the answer.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

And that sounds like, you know, being able to create that space for all these people is amazing. So let's chat a bit more about how this space shows up within Angie Rose. What is it about the way Angie Rose is held by both of you that allows women to soften, open, and actually move through something real? I think it well well, first of all, it's the way it's set up.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Everything is intentional. Every single element of that two-day immersive container is intentional. From the resources you receive to the pre and post support you get, to the way the room's designed, to the content that's within the two days, to the held spaces within the held spaces. Everything, every single element has been deeply nurtured, but also put together in a way that you cannot leave that space the same way that you walked into it. It's a it's a it's almost like this beautiful cocoon that you step into for two days, where you, if you think about a butterfly, well a caterpillar, the caterpillar eats all of all of as much as it can, and then it goes into the cocoon and comes out of butterfly. And she rose is exactly like that because for two days you're consuming content, you're eating all of that stuff up, and and you're then also resting in that space, and then when you leave, you're emerging as like it having a deeper, it's either an identity shift, a deeper sense of self, or being in a place where you have quantum leaped, quite literally, from one baseline or version of yourself to another. Um, and what allows women to soften is helping them to learn how to give themselves permission to become their own leaders in their own life. Because for a lot of us, men and women, we outsource that. We we we use the lens of external society, and that dictates the terms and conditions about how we have to be, you know, a simple example is that that of a um someone that's a a a promoter online, right? Someone that that says, Oh, you know, this is the new this shirt shirt is the new black, right? An influencer. That is that that is taking someone else's take on it. You might like that, but why do you like that and how do you like that? And is it right for you, or are you just setting yourself up based on structures and mindsets that have been imposed or impressed upon you rather than being your own sovereign authority on those things? And that's just a really base basic example. What we do in that container is way beyond anything like that, and that that is I think the in the intention, I know the intentions and how much depth and thought is put into how that container supports and turns up for women is what allows them to soften, is what gives them permission because there's a reclamation happening. What would you say about that, Nat?

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Um, that health space also brings like you get a lot of insight into who you are all of a sudden because you've taken the time to sit and learn. And then at the end of it, it's like, well, how am I gonna make this change moving forward? Um, I think probably just reflecting again personally, I was scared I was gonna lose too much of my identity because I'd I'd actually I was actually quite happy with who I was. I was a massive empath, but I then I started finding out things like words like people pleasing and things like this that started to really challenge me on who I was and now years down the track, um I still do those things but I don't put them first. So it's just pulled that back in where I make sure that it's what my intentions are for myself as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

So from being in a place where you were happy with who you were, what actually motivated you to dive into the Angie Rose container, even though you were happy with where you were? And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being happy with where you were.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

I wanted more. Ah okay. I wanted so much more. I knew there had to be something else out there, and I knew just with some work I'd done with you in the family environment, I knew there was definitely more out there for what I wanted to do and my purpose, like I wasn't feeling fulfilled enough, and I was going through a transition, and it just helped navigate that space a lot nicer for me. So and so then for you, even though you were happy with where you're at, once you started that commencement of the program, would it be fair to say that what unfolded for you was maybe you weren't happy with some of the things that 100% I did realise at us all and then now having more of a fulfilment in life, like um where I am, who I am, and I probably didn't even know who that was. I thought I did, yeah, but um that times that time that I spent in that space with you and some of the awesome women that I got to meet as well, um, and hearing of their journey, I think you also don't feel alone because it can sometimes be really hard with us strong women to go, hey, something's not quite right and I need help. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

I think the other thing just in relation to the answering of your question, Caitlin, about you know what allows women to soften, there's a deep ancient instinct there for women, knowing that sitting in circle with other women and unpacking those types of things with other women is something that we've practiced since the beginning of time that's been stripped away from us. And so they come in to that energetic space with this really deep felt sense that this is actually the way it should be, this is what's right, this is this is the way we should be in right relationship with each other and with these processes, these are actually part of what it is to to be a woman, and I think that there's the that that energetics of that land really quickly, which enables women to open up really fast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

So, what is it that actually shifts the women inside held spaces like Angie Rose? Because women walk in at very different points. Is it that some feel stuck, disconnected, looking for a new version of themselves, or maybe there's something wrong or off, or they want something more like you, Nat. And then something changes across those two days. What do we actually see shift in women? So, Nat, you completed Angie Rose, and now you've moved into a space of co-facilitating Angie Rose. How did you shift from one to the other?

SPEAKER_04 14:15

I I just didn't want to stop. Um, just the insights that I learned through Angie Rose. I've continued to go on and do two or three more courses now with Joe. And just constantly um even attending and doing um health space things with Joe and a couple of the other women that I've met along the way. Um, I've brought it into my work environment as well, and also the way I communicate and um also yeah, in the family unit, I think it's made a big shift and change for the way that I see myself as a mum and as a wife, and just me as a person as well, because that never gets brought up. I then went on to do for a couple years now I've been wanting to do the NLP practitioners course. Uh and last year I actually signed up, paid for it, and um invested that time in myself and it just got deeper. Yeah, it really got deeper, a big shift happened, has been happening for a few years now with myself, but last year I the the learnings got deeper and I'm continuing to learn, I'm continuing to grow, and um I just want to know more. I find people's behaviour quite interesting, um, challenging, and also I'd love to see women support women. So that's what I really enjoyed about the course the most. Yeah, yeah. Um, and for those who don't know, what is NLP?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Neurolinguistic programming and what does that entail?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

It's the easy way, it's just subconscious reprogramming. Yeah, yeah, it's the easy way to put it. So it's about it, it's the the practice of excellence in the patterning that goes on in our brains. So um everything that we do exists in our subconscious mind, it's like a giant catalogue, and within that catalogue, where we could think about um that catalogue being like a computer hard drive, and within that hard drive, there's programs and lines of code and lots of different things. What we know about how mindsets work and how our behavior interacts with mindsets is that it drives them. So NLP is the study of that, as well as learning the tools and strategies to help people change that and helping them implement that, and then the linguistics part is about speech, not just how we speak on the outside, but how we speak on the inside and how those interactions happen. So uh NLP is the pursuit of personal excellence, and it can be utilized in coaching, in therapy, in lots of different ways. So um it's a it's a big study area, it's also um quick, it's like hypnotherapy on steroids. So it works quick, it changes things fast, which is why we can implement fast change in a way that doesn't disrupt a person's felt sense of self so that they become out of touch with their environment and their world, and then they can't calibrate quick enough, it works to support a person quite quickly in those spaces.

SPEAKER_04 17:23

Yeah, without the um I've seen people have different therapies and things like that, and they don't know then how to take that resource away and actually implement it. Whereas NLP I find it's quite nice and nurturing, and you can actually just heighten some of the your really strong strategies and different things that are happening in your life. Um, and then if there's anything that you yeah need to work on, you can just do it gradually, it's not like instant, and then people go, Oh, what what just happened? Sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

I think a bit like the good thing about NLP is it puts people back in the driver's seat of their life. They learn these tools and strategies, and then they know long after they've done work with a practitioner or a therapist, they can reuse that. It's a rinse and repeat in a different way. Sometimes there might be a big issue or a trauma or an incident that they need to come back and talk to their therapist about or their practitioner about to just reframe a few things for them, but then they're hitting they hit the ground running and they're off, which is a little bit different to other traditional forms of uh therapy and coaching, because that's there's a lot of talk therapy in that stuff, and even though there is a lot of linguistics in NLP um therapy, there's just so much more action, yeah, and that's why it moves a lot quicker. And so for someone that might have two or three decades worth of uh pro our dated programming and um maybe lines of code that are faulty if we talk about it like that, it's it's gonna take them a lot less time with NLP than it is with other forms of therapy, depending on what's going on, because all there's always a disclaimer for everyone there, but that that that can really change. Like we work with phobia changes, we work with restructuring the way that um PTSD works in the body. There's so many different elements we can work with in NLP.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

Yeah, sorry, and just one other thing that just come up while Joe was talking there is awareness. So once you can feel yourself um or being aware of something that might have triggered you before, or that programming as well, um, you can actually go, oh, that's coming up for me again. I need to sort of pivot and get myself in the right space. Yeah, yeah, great.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Let's go a bit deeper into and she rose beyond the description. So on paper, it's a two-day immersive experience. Yeah. There's conversation, there's reflection, but that doesn't really capture it. So for both of you, how would you explain and she rose to someone who feels the pull like they need to do something, but doesn't fully understand what they're being called into?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Oh well, that's an interesting question. Well, I'm gonna say, as a little bit of proof in the pudding, Nat actually wouldn't be possibly talking here today without some of the tools from Angie Rose. 100%. She said that to me before, that's not me claiming that for her. Um so how would I explain and she rose? Well, it's a course for women. Uh, and traditionally we find that women from 25 and up usually do the best in it, and it's definitely for women, like I've worked with women in their 60s and 70s in this course, so I love that this course opens up a cross range of maidens, mothers, magas, and crones, which is so beautiful. Uh, so it's for women across all of those diverse spaces, and um well, I first of all I'm saying if you're feeling the pull, there's something there. And we've been taught to ignore our intuition. So if something is pulling you, that's your intuition saying this this is something you need to pay attention to, yeah, and then sometimes we don't fully understand everything we do, but we just know this is the next step for me. So, do we really need to know or fully understand everything aside from the logistics of things? Like, when is it, you know, how am I gonna be, how am I gonna get there, how do I pay, all that type of stuff. Asides from those logistics, I suppose I always move to the felt sense. Like, what's the felt sense within you? Is it, is it, you know, are you hearing that those that voice that says this is right for you? Are you feeling this is you need a next step, you need a direction, or you need a help leveling up. With something, or um are you are you sensing that there's something extra for you? So that would be the answers that I give around feeling the pool, and someone that doesn't fully understand what they're being called into. What you're being called into is a sacred container. It's a container that you will be completely immersed in uh the ancient feminine wisdom with some therapeutic and coaching tools and learning how to develop good relationships with women again. So I actually get a lot of women that step into the container petrified of other women. Seriously, like they've been so damaged by other women in toxic female circles for or workplaces or lots of different places where like they know they want to do it, but they're petrified about stepping into circle because they judge themselves so much or they've been judged in other spaces that they're but they they know that they want to heal that, they want to heal the feminine wound there. So that would definitely be something else that's huge in that space. Nat.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Um, I just got the Nike slogan in my head saying just do it. Um and like what have you got to lose? Like when you feel that pull, like to go away and spend time on yourself for two days, like a lot of women don't give themselves that space. We don't give ourselves two minutes. No, and we make excuses, but if um you actually just do it, uh the amount of information that you'll pro and the tools that you'll get in the two days, even if you only get a couple little things, which you'll get lots of, they will you will, but you will also it's it's a game changer, it it gives you a different perspective on who you are, an understanding and perspective, sorry, of who you are. So um, yeah, I know a lot of women can be quite scared, like Joe just mentioned, about being with other women and in a safe space, but this space that um we do hold it's non-judgmental, and you can be free to be whoever you want to be.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

So I think for in the non-judgmental part, it's learning not to be judgmental of yourself too. It's really empowering you to understand that you don't need to, yes, you need to be able to reflect and assess where you're at and what you're doing, but there's a difference between doing that and being the curious observer in your life to judging yourself and persecuting yourself for you know a plethora of different different things. I suppose Caitlin, for you, I'd be interested in, you know, what would what would you need or what would you what would you what do you what are your thoughts on Anchie Rose? Because you kind of get the back end and you've had some Angie Rose experience, so some. Some and we kind of let's be I don't know if she's happy to answer this, but she got put in the hot seat with Matt and I because we did a delivery day and she was our our mock client for the for a few hours and she got put through some of that. What was that experience like for you in that really small old container that we had that day? But in saying that we weren't interrupted and we had a really nice space, and and just to put the feels out there, you know, we Nat brought a beautiful these amazing box of woods and I'd organise lunch. So this is part of what we talk about as setup of a container, right? Is that we're nurtured, we're held, we're looked after, all our senses are being catered for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah. Um I think I was a great guinea pig, I guess, for you guys, because I am in a space of I know I need to do something, but I don't know what it is. And I was and I feel and I'm still in like very raw stage as well. So I think it was really good for all of us um to do that day because I could answer questions, you know, coming from the mindset of a mum or just a person who's in the middle of a transition, who and I think I said it a few times, like my brain doesn't understand. Um it was interesting because you would ask very simple questions and sometimes it took me a moment to uh think deeply into those um about how, you know, how I actually feel how how I actually feel my answer is rather than what I think the answer should be. Because it's it's been such a a long time that I've lived to please people, be a people pleaser and give people what they want, what I think they want. And in that space, yeah, it allowed me to think a bit more and you gave me the time and even prompted me a little bit. Um, if I couldn't quite get my head around it, you'd kind of go in a different direction to help me come back to it. To yeah, to allow me to just stop and think about who I actually am. And it was hard. Can you define hard? What do you mean when you say that? I think that I really tried to push against the truth. Oh. To like I didn't um it's hard to describe. Like I I feel like I we you'd ask me the question and I'd have a deep think, I would realise what my truth was, but then still to say it out loud. It was a bit like choking on it, yeah, yeah, it was really hard. But then once I said it I felt better.

unknown 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Um and so was there a sense of relief that came over once that came out?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Like Yeah, a bit of relief. And then I also kind of I walked away with like lots more to think about, and even just like looking at um like my home life, my relationship with my husband and my relationship with my daughters, and like looking at those a little bit deeper and going, oh hang on.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

How am I showing up in those spaces?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah, and especially with like we spoke about um scripting and yeah, and a lot of things that just were ingrained in me, just from like growing up or just society really what TV um and and learning that that doesn't have to be the truth. I can make my own. Yeah, make my own truth. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It was deep and I was only there for what three hours or so.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

It's a mercy of exactly. So imagine having that that experience over and over and over again for the period of two days. Yeah. What do you think you would come out like after having just that, you know, we've just honed in on say scripts, or we've just honed in on what you know, to how I turn up in that space. And and core values, that was a huge.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

That was a big one because I yeah, um, when I looked into core values, I was like, yeah, honesty. And then um you pointed out that you actually have to be able to live those core values yourself. And I was like, oh, I'm not fully honest. So how can I expect other people to be honest with me if I can't be honest with you?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

And when you're talking about honest, so just so that our listeners get a scope for that, it's not that you're distrustful or it's what you're saying is it scares you to be honest about things to other people because of the people pleaser.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Because I wanted to just pull that into context to say it doesn't mean you don't value it, and it doesn't mean that you're not an honest person as in of good moral fibre. But what it means is as a core value, you cannot say it's a core value because you're not able to practice it the way in which you would like to. Yeah, yeah. And that may change further down the track, or it may not, and that's totally fine. Wherever and however that shows up, it doesn't mean you don't value it, it just means it's not a core value, which is that discrepancy. Yeah. So yeah, can you just getting back to that question? Imagine that unfolding over and over and over again over a period of two days in a really supported space where you're taken it care of emotionally and energetically and physically, and you're surrounded by other women going through this same journey as you're going through. How do you think that might feel for you at the end of that?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

I would definitely feel lighter, but I I think I'd be much the same as Nat. I would want more. I'd be like, right, what else?

SPEAKER_01 31:03

So you've got to you would kick an appetite in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

I'd be like, right, why are we stopping? Yeah, because I would I'd come out of that wanting to like implement and you would and make the most out of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

And you would because you'd be taking all of that with you, and there would be a plan of implementation. And the reason why stop here is integration. You need to integrate everything and embody everything, and then you go, what's next? Yeah, for sure. I'm I'm in I'm still doing that 20 years, 25 years down the road. I'm like, so what's next? So, and not like what's next, I'm distracted by what's next. What's next because that's my natural progression, like I've reached a new baseline, and it's like, okay, so what am I feeling into now? What's the what's the territory, the environment that I'm feeling into next, and how do I build on that? Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

I'd like to touch on the readiness because I think that connects to how a space is experienced, especially, you know, if you had come to me maybe 12 months ago. Maybe well no, because I wouldn't have had the baby. Well, yeah, no, if you'd come to me 12 months ago, I would be very heavily pregnant and I would not be in a space of readiness to to go into something like this. Um, but then also there's there's women out there that have different reasons for readiness as well. For someone listening, how do they know if they're ready to step into a space like this? What allows someone to actually receive what's being held rather than resist it?

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Whew, that's a deep question.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah, I think it is. Um we like we've come across a few people that they think they're ready and then they they start um kind of I guess they start to hear what you've got to say and then they push because they go, that's not what I want to hear. And yeah. The resist. They start to resist it.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Well, you even said yourself there was some resistance in the stuff in that little bit of work that we did on that day, because you're like, I know this is the real truth, but it's choking me up. So there's you know, that's a great example of how resistance is actually part of the process. But I'll let Matt jump in on this one first and see what she thinks.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

I think it comes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's um the resistance. So you might you were saying like core values and scripts, like different elements of the program itself, you might get a few things, but then the resistance is the one that you need to work on the most. Yeah. So um, and when you were just talking there, I'm thinking fear. Um I'm thinking, yeah, we kept saying resistance, but fear is a big thing, and I think if you've got fear in something like this year, Joe keeps asking me to do a lot of things, and I'm just like, yep, yep. If I think about too much, I'm gonna fear it, and I'm gonna go, I can't do it. So um, and I'm doing that in a lot of things in my life right now because I don't want to go back and go, I should have done that, or I should have done this. Um, I want to be able to say, I nailed that, or I actually had a crack, and like what have I got to lose, really?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Well, there is no failure. No, if you're giving it a go anyway, you you're already winning, right? So I think it's so interesting, Nat, when you talk about um like just saying yes to something, for you, what's that difference between saying yes and overcommitting yourself to things and saying yes and knowing that that gauge between oh I if I said no to this, that would be a fear-based response versus oh, this is just saying yes because it's an old pattern and I say yes and then I overload myself. What's the difference there? I think again, back to what we were just talking about with the level up.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

So um every year we look, we talk about words and different things that we've got for the year, and it's like, how am I gonna level myself up on what I already know and grow? Or am I saying yes to something that usually it's a social event that I don't want to do? And I've I've pushed myself really hard all week, and then you get to the weekend, it's like, oh, I wish I didn't commit to that dinner out with people because I really didn't want to go, they're probably not even the people I want to hang out with right now, so I stopped saying yes to those sort of things. I think it's just making sure that my yes is for something that's gonna make me feel like I'm bettering myself and that I'm gonna level up that next lot of um intentions that I've had. But the yes to the things that are sort of empty, yeah, like and not um not fulfilling what my goal is.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

How do you know, Caitlin, the difference between when something is like inviting you and it would be overload versus fear?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I usually just go off my gut. I just I kind of like I just kind of know. Intuitively. I kind of I usually know whether I'm making a choice based off of fear or anxiety, or whether it's just not the right choice. Like I or if it's like something I just don't want to do. There was a probably probably six months ago, I had actually applied for a job. They'd contacted me to have an interview, and I just felt off about it. Part of me was like, is this because I'm just I'm anxious about going back to work and I have a baby and stuff? But I I knew that I just did not want that job. And there were so many things that kept blocking me from doing this interview, and I just finally went, I was like, why am I fighting against I don't want to do it, and the universe is telling me not to do it because it's it's making like it's putting roadblocks in there. And there were so many roadblocks, like they wanted me to the interview had to be on this day, and that was the only day of the week that I had both of the girls. I had nobody else to care for them. They were not even flexible with time, so I couldn't even um change the time of the appointment like the interview so that um like my dad could come and watch them for like an hour or whatever it was. And there were so many yeah, roadblocks, and I was like, I don't want to do it. Everything's telling me not to do it, and that's like that's kind of how I knew it wasn't I wasn't scared, I didn't want to do it. Um so every time I'm making a decision I'm feeling inside whether I'm making a decision based on on fear. Because I'm very fear and I are very well acquainted. So I know I know when it's fear and when it's not.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, that's really interesting, because that is my method of assessment whether I know I'm ready for things or not, is I've got like a sequence basically. First of all, if there's fear, I'm like, is this real fear? Is the lion gonna eat me? Yeah, right? Fear, because that's real fear, or is this anxiety, which is classed as unrealistic fear? A lot of it is projected from the future, like projecting yourself into the future and then going, or what about this, or what about that, and running through all these multiple scenarios of things that could possibly happen without actually qualifying information. So, first of all, I assess that, and I'm like, okay, so that's more of an anxious fear, and I'm like, so what am I fearful about then? What is it that's the problem? And let's say in this instance, it could be something like oh, like it's gonna stretch me financially, right? So that could be, and then I I have learned personally that I then apply the tool that I taught my kids the squeaky wheel gets oiled, right? So if that is my fear, I have a rule with myself that I need to address it. So if I did that, I would actually be making contact with that person and saying, look, I'm concerned about this. Can you offer me this? This is what I could do, and then I either get a yes or I get a no. And that to me, like we we run off so many assumptions where we can't do this or this is not like we can't take up space and ask these questions. So I keep going through a method of assessment like that, and then like you said about the roadblocks, if I keep asking and I keep getting roadblocks, then that says also says to me, not necessarily not ever, but not right now. Whereas if I ask those questions and qualify what I can and can't do in that space, and then it's a yes, yes, yes, yes, and I'm still scared, then I know it's definitely something I need to do. Because what sits next to that scariness is excitement, is like, ooh, what if what would that look like? And what if this could be that, and in a really good way, so then I'm like, well, I won't know unless I do it, and that's how I assess something I'm being pulled into, but I don't, I might not um I don't might not know if I'm quite ready or not. And I I always say you don't have to have it all sorted out, but you do need to take a step. Because if you don't take steps towards something and then qualify whether it's going to work or not for you, then you're paralyzed, you've got analysis paralysis, and you're sitting back here, never actually actioning anything and not qualifying whether you're getting the right answers for yourself or not. Because then how do you how do you how do you know? Unless it's like saying to someone, oh here, would you like some chocolate cake? And they're going, Oh no, I hate chocolate cake, and you go, Okay, what is it the texture? And they're like, Oh, I don't know. And it's like, sorry, what do you mean you don't know? And they're like, Oh, well, I've never eaten it, but I hate it. And you're like, How? How is that possible? It's a formed thought, right? It's a mindset about it's an agreement about chocolate cake, but they've got no idea, they haven't actually qualified, yes, I ate the chocolate cake and it tastes like shit, or no, actually, that's not as bad as I thought it was, right? So, but we don't do that, we're not taught to qualify things in our lives, we're taught to follow, and that's a big thing. Or fear, fear or follow, exactly. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Did you have anything to add about readiness or not being ready?

SPEAKER_04 41:49

I don't know that you could actually say you're not ready. Um like you feel like sorry, yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

No, no, I'm just thinking I'm just thinking that the people who are not ready don't know that they're not ready because they don't have the awareness, awareness of not being ready. And I kind of whenever I see not ready, I'm not thinking about people who are scared or um can't financially do it because they they are ready. Yeah, my brain goes to the people who resist, they're the people that aren't ready, but they don't know that they're not ready. Yeah, because um that's a really insightful statement, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Really insightful. And look, this applies not just to the Ang She Rose container, this applies to any personal work, yeah. Anything any any work that you're gonna step into?

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Yeah, it's I feel like it's the people that don't know that need to do it.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

You're right. So Nat what would your answers be? What would be the I know what mine are, so I'm gonna hold on one moment. What would your answers be that they're experiencing that they are ready for this work, but they don't know that they're ready. So my first marker is repetitious cycle. Oh yeah. Yeah, like they keep having the same experiences, either you keep choosing the wrong people to be to couple up with, or you keep having the same conflicts with people. Or keep losing that job. Exactly. You keep you keep finding yourselves in these negative situations and you don't understand why this is happening. That would be someone that's ready. Um, or somebody that feels like they're treading water, like they're treading, treading, oh yeah, life's good, like I feel like I've got the job sorted, and I feel like I've um I'm doing this. So they're like they're ticking all the boxes, but there's a felt sense of dissatisfaction. Like, or like, uh, this is easy, you know, like I'm doing all this, but I'm not really. Getting fulfillment out of these things. That would be someone who's ready for this work as well. The other thing, so I said pattern and treading water, and the other thing would be like someone who feels like they don't have direction. So opposite this person who's treading water has got heaps of direction, but they just are sitting in the same spot. Whereas someone who feels like they can't get a bearing on a direction, and they might be blaming lots of external sources for that, like oh, it's the job, or oh, it's the my partner, or oh, it's my parents, or you know, and they're not actually able to sit in a space where they can go find out what it is going on inside of them. That they would be my main three. What about yours now?

SPEAKER_04 44:50

Um, probably very similar, but more around not feeling challenged, like feeling like yeah, you're on groundhog day. Oh yeah and uh really bored, but like still having the fulfilment and you've still got like you like you said, ticking all the boxes, but at the same time going, There's got to be something more. Then I'm I want something more. I don't want to. And getting all these crazy stuff come up on your socials. Yeah. Um, and just this sense of just not feeling fulfilled um in all aspects of your life. And I think you start the course really like in a beautiful space about your wheel of life. Yeah. And um actually owning it and saying exactly where you're up to. Like I remember mine being so jagged, I don't know, it wouldn't have turned.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Um it was so different key life areas.

SPEAKER_04 45:48

It was very jagged. It was a flat top. It was like a bit of a star sort of shape and it wasn't round at all. So I'm like, how can you not get traction and how can you not move forward or grow in those spaces if you don't even know where you're at?

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

So um yeah, it would definitely be I think that's where the readiness comes in, but then I think the resistance can also be the unknown. So not actually knowing what you're going to put yourself into for two days, and we're telling you all these wonderful things and things we've experienced and seen many women experience so far, and we get really excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Yeah, it's like watching the unfolding of women in that space is so good. Like it's amazing. And will you have a shit your pants moment? Of course you will. Yeah, but will you have a like an absolute euphoric moment or some ding-dong awareness? You'll get all of that. And will there be happiness, will there be a range of emotions? Absolutely, absolutely, but at the end of it, it all culminates to this empowered journey that maybe you never knew you needed in the first place, but then when you do it, you're like, how could I have not needed that? How could I have how was I even operating in those spaces? Like, how? How was I doing that? It's kind of like um maybe somebody that like can't hear properly, who doesn't actually think that there's a hearing issue, like literally, it's kind of like when you first get glasses too, like they don't think that there's a hearing issue, and then actually really remember a friend of ours who was just managing not hearing well for quite a while, male friend, and he was just accepting it. He was just like, Oh yeah, that's it, that's it, because there's probably shame and and judgment and all those things tied up in the fact that maybe my hearing's gone, and he went and got his hearing tested and then got there's little invisible hearing it, and he's like, I didn't realise I wasn't hearing the birds, and I didn't like there were all of these things that he didn't realise he was missing out on because he just reserved himself to the fact that that's just the way it is, and I'm here to tell you it's not like that. Just live it, yeah. That's just how I've got to live. Yeah, exactly. Like just resigning yourself to that way of living all the time, and it's uh that's just the way I call bullshit on the whole lot, and and the reason I do is because of these types of containers that not just I just don't, I'm not the only one offering these things. There's other people out there offering stuff, and no matter what you what direction you decide to decide to go in and what you decide to do, like you start to learn things straight away. And then you just want everyone to learn with you, so yeah, yeah. Especially if you're a sharer. Yeah, because if you like sharing, you're like, oh, how about this little one? How about that? How about this? And you get quite quite passionate about sharing all that information, and I mean that's what drives me as a person. You know, if I rise, my people rise, and I keep consistently offering those things to people because I believe that as women we are moving and on the rise, and it's time for us to really step into places of personal autonomy and sovereignty for the purpose of making like putting our best selves out there, you know. We we work on us, we we get good mothering, good community members, good sisters, good friends, good daughters, good everything. We and women are responsible for the psychic, energetic, emotional environment. So when we we work on that within ourselves, God, we're forced to be reckoned with. Oh, yeah. You know, we're just so and not in this power over paradigm or force energy, it's like you just radiate it. You see it, you can you've spotted it before, right? You see a woman in a space, and you just she's magnetic, and you watch her and you're like, I can't take my eyes off her. She's like, oh my god, like she just has this creative force coming out of her, and I'm like, I I would like to be near that because I I can feel, and that's what we're here to to give women back is that magnetic force in themselves, that space of that creatrix space where they just ooze it all out of them. It's pretty magical to watch. It really is. It really is. It definitely is.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Before we close out, I'd love to ask you for your final nugget, Joe. Or the nugget. Everything we've spoken about today, what it means to hold space, what actually happens within it, and why it can create such a shift. For the woman listening, what would you want her to understand about the kind of spaces she places herself in?

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Be discerning. Be discerning about the places that you open yourself up in. I'm not uh like I'm an advocate for opening up and finding those right spaces, but know that they're held. Know that in the spaces that you go to depth, that there's confidentiality agreements in place, that you know that what you say can be heard without being needing to be fixed or changed, uh, depending on what space you're in. If you're in a therapy space, that would look a little different because you are there to be helped in that space. And also um be bold, be brave, put yourself out there, like you don't know what your edges are and where you can stretch yourself to unless you actually stretch. And seek out well-healed spaces for women, places where everybody's every like the it might be just the women's spaces, so say it's a women's circle or something like that, where it's being held with deep integrity because there's a lot of offerings out there on the table, especially in the health and wellness spaces. And I've been in situations where good intending people have wanted to go to depth with women or with men and women, but unfortunately the space doesn't really support that, and uh I think that's really important to know there's a time and a place for each thing, and you can find those spaces with your own discernment, and like you said, your gut feeling, Caitlin, or um maybe Nat's desire to to stretch herself and find that place that she could do that in. It's really discernment. I would say that is my number one key there. Nat, what would you say?

SPEAKER_04 52:55

If anyone sort of I think resistance still comes up, if anyone was sort of sitting in that space where they were feeling not confident to be able to share, um I can't stress to you enough how comfortable the the space and also how much work goes into making sure you don't feel like that when you walk in. So if it's that holding you back right now, going, Oh, I've got too much, like just bring a bit of yourself and you'll still get so much from it. So um it could be something you'd want to continue on even in a one-on-one space. Some people um might need that as well. But um as far as like you said, step into it, um, own it and just take that time for yourself because I think that's another um thing, like I mentioned earlier. Women don't do that well. We've always got everyone else to keep happy and keep on top of. Yeah. Um, so make sure that you are it's an investing in yourself, really.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Yeah, I think as a rule of thumb too, if you're looking into a women's circle, I was so blessed to be able to sit in circle with a really good mentor in that space that a women's circle no one has an opinion, especially in the talking bowl time. In the talking bowl time, which is an ancient feminine practice, she who holds the basket speaks and nobody else talks. We don't have an opinion, we don't give feedback, we hold space, we sit as a container full of women and we hear what this woman has to say with no intention other than just hearing her, and that is it, and that is such a powerful tool. If you're in a space where that in a specific women's circle that runs talking bowls, and that is not happening, and the rights and responsibilities of each circle holder is not being spoken about, and the um transparency of privacy and um and also confidentiality hasn't been addressed. I would say be mindful because they're the strong foundations that need to be set up in those spaces, and the other thing about uh talking circles, talking basket circles, and men have talking circles too, uh, usually got the talking stick, it's very phallic. For women, it's the talking bowl, but in those spaces, whatever gets said inside that circle doesn't get spoken about or repeated outside the circle, unless the woman who's spoken it wants to talk about it outside. That's her story to tell and her story to initiate, but it's besides that, it doesn't get spoken about. That is such a powerful thing because women everywhere are renowned for the opposite, yeah, yeah, because that's we've lost that space, we've lost that safe space to learn how to be in those circles, and because we've lost that, our whole culture has changed, and then you know, we get the opposite happening, we get that toxic femininity coming out, we get that gossiping, we get that taking things personally and making assumptions, and it's all just a giant, you know, quagmire of yuckiness.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Yeah, and it's interesting, um, because at some point it kind of turned into women felt like the only way to bond with another woman was to gossip. Correct. And then losing the trust of all the other women that you're talking about. Correct. And I don't understand when that happened. I'm certainly guilty of it.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

And I think we all have over the course of our lives.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Yeah, and it was when I first heard you say a few weeks ago that that's her story, we don't have the right to tell that story. Correct. And that's when it kind of clicked with me. I was like, oh my god. Yeah. Yes, yeah. I would love it if we could just click our fingers and and go to not gossiping, yeah, and go back to sitting in a circle. It's a practice, right? Yeah, yeah. I wish we could just go back to it instantly, but we can't.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

We're getting there. We're a movement, yeah. We're getting there, we're coming back into the right relationship with that, but it takes a lot of work. Not that's the wrong. I'm gonna reframe that. It takes desire, it takes desire to want to do there, and I think that's the same answer to the question about somebody who's not sure if they're ready. If you have the desire to change something in your life, then just use that as your momentum and your guideline and your vision space to move forward. And if that's all that drives you a desire for change, what it looks like, you might not know straight away, but use it because it's so powerful, it makes worlds desire. Like, look what happens when you desire a man and you're a woman, and then babies come from that. So, yeah, like babies come from lots of other places, but but I'm just talking about pure desire, like it it creates relationships, it creates the foundation of life, it creates worlds, yeah. So, because like attracts like that's desire. So, when you're desiring to go somewhere with yourself, you will attract those situations and experiences to fulfill that desire, you just got to be prepared to go the distance.

SPEAKER_04 58:38

I think that's where it comes back to that health space too. Something that just came up while you guys were talking was uh as the person sitting there and sharing and you're speaking it, it's it's not you totally forget that you're there with other people and you forget that the whole judgment thing's happening, but because you've spoken it, it's actually where the power comes in and you can change. Yeah, so speaking it out loud and to a group of other women um in a safe place then breeds that next step to empower you to level it up, yeah, absolutely, and also in those spaces, if judgment does come up within ourselves, what's that saying about me?

SPEAKER_01 59:18

What do I need to actually address there? Not rather than the judgment towards the other person that they're saying, because that's how it usually arises, but usually it's something that's amiss inside of ourselves, and unpacking that has such powerful potential because you're like, Oh, that's what that's about. Okay, all right, well, I can address that with this, but we're not taught that either, Caitlin. In those toxic spaces, it's like judgment is normal. Yeah, we should be judging. So, you know, if we've got billions of women walking around judging themselves as well as other people, because that's what we've been indoctrinated with, we've been put in competition with each other, and judgment always comes. It doesn't matter, like if you strip everything away, judgment is usually at its rudimentary saying this thing is in opposition to what I think and feel or believe, so therefore it's wrong. And when you strip that away, and you go, Well, wrong to who? Wrong how? Who decides what the parameters of wrong are? Like, it's okay for you to go, that's not for me, or I would do that a different way, or hmm, perhaps that could have been handled in a a like an eye, but you're also talking from your lens, right? So it's getting really conscious about what is that about for you, and um then you're sitting in the power seat, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Yeah. Thank you so much to both of you for your insight today. Diving very deep once again. To the women out there listening, if something in this conversation resonated, if you felt that quiet pull or that sense of there's something more here for me, you're not alone in that, and I can uh yeah, I can tell you that. Anshi Rose is one of those spaces where women come to explore exactly that. It's a two-day immersive experience held across Australia and Canada, where women are supported to reconnect with themselves, unpack what's been sitting beneath the surface, and step into a deeper sense of identity. And for those who feel called into something more personalized, Jo also works with women inside her embodied woman one-on-one container. We'll pop the links in the show notes if you'd like to explore further. But for now, thank you for being here and for being part of these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Thanks, Caitlin. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. And thank you to Nat as well. Thanks for being here. I'm sure you'll see us around the traps soon enough. And we'll catch up with you in our next conversation. Bye. Firstly, a deep thank you to our guests today for their honesty, wisdom, and the courage to have those real conversations. If something's landed for you today, don't brush it off. That pull you feel, it's your next edge calling. If you'd like to explore working with me, hit me up on my socials or on my website at joannlee.com.au. Until next time, keep showing up for yourself because you're worth it with love. Joe.